Staph vaccine to treat CFS??
- Thread starter SpecialK82
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I think this is right.
The way a vaccine normally works, which is to educate the adaptive immune system into making antibodies that target and neutralize certain components (antigens) of a microbe, may not involved at all in the benefits this Staphylococcus vaccine has for ME/CFS.
Rather, I think it is more likely that the toxoid components in the vaccine are acting like therapeutic drugs in the body.
For example, at the bottom of this post, you see how enterotoxin B in the vaccine acts like a drug on the CD28 receptor (the CD28 receptor controls differentiation of regulatory T-cells, which play a central role in autoimmunity, by maintaining immune self-tolerance)
And in this post you see how purified staphylococcal toxoid seems to fix the immunosuppression caused by caused by coxsackievirus B, a virus strongly linked to ME/CFS.
So what does all this mean in terms of choosing the adsorbed or non-adsorbed version of the Russian Staphylococcus toxoid vaccine as an ME/CFS treatment?
Well, the adsorption is done onto aluminum hydroxide. Adsorption just involves "glueing" Staphylococcus antigens onto aluminum hydroxide.
In this paper on aluminum hydroxide-adsorbed vaccines, it says:
So this indicates that aluminum hydroxide-adsorbed vaccines are more potent because they generally produce a better education of the adaptive immune response; but since the adaptive immune response may or may not be involved in the benefits this Staphylococcus toxoid vaccine has for ME/CFS, this increase in potency may or may not be of benefit for ME/CFS.
Furthermore, if the Staphylococcus antigens (like alpha toxin and enterotoxin B toxoids) are "glued" to aluminum hydroxide via adsorption, could this actually reduce the efficacy of these toxoids?
For example, if the vaccine works for ME/CFS because the enterotoxin B toxoid binds to the CD28 receptor, if enterotoxin B is "glued" to aluminum hydroxide, will enterotoxin B still be able to bind to the CD28 receptor as effectively?
The way a vaccine normally works, which is to educate the adaptive immune system into making antibodies that target and neutralize certain components (antigens) of a microbe, may not involved at all in the benefits this Staphylococcus vaccine has for ME/CFS.
Rather, I think it is more likely that the toxoid components in the vaccine are acting like therapeutic drugs in the body.
For example, at the bottom of this post, you see how enterotoxin B in the vaccine acts like a drug on the CD28 receptor (the CD28 receptor controls differentiation of regulatory T-cells, which play a central role in autoimmunity, by maintaining immune self-tolerance)
And in this post you see how purified staphylococcal toxoid seems to fix the immunosuppression caused by caused by coxsackievirus B, a virus strongly linked to ME/CFS.
So what does all this mean in terms of choosing the adsorbed or non-adsorbed version of the Russian Staphylococcus toxoid vaccine as an ME/CFS treatment?
Well, the adsorption is done onto aluminum hydroxide. Adsorption just involves "glueing" Staphylococcus antigens onto aluminum hydroxide.
In this paper on aluminum hydroxide-adsorbed vaccines, it says:
So this indicates that aluminum hydroxide-adsorbed vaccines are more potent because they generally produce a better education of the adaptive immune response; but since the adaptive immune response may or may not be involved in the benefits this Staphylococcus toxoid vaccine has for ME/CFS, this increase in potency may or may not be of benefit for ME/CFS.
Furthermore, if the Staphylococcus antigens (like alpha toxin and enterotoxin B toxoids) are "glued" to aluminum hydroxide via adsorption, could this actually reduce the efficacy of these toxoids?
For example, if the vaccine works for ME/CFS because the enterotoxin B toxoid binds to the CD28 receptor, if enterotoxin B is "glued" to aluminum hydroxide, will enterotoxin B still be able to bind to the CD28 receptor as effectively?
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Later, on page 6 of the same paper, they say:
So they are saying here that the higher neutralization capacity against alpha toxin found in good responders to the vaccine may just be a marker of a generally improved immune response.
So here we see that staphylococcal antigens also seem to boost cell-mediated immunity (cell-mediated immunity does not involve antibodies). Interestingly, Staphage Lysate (for dogs) is available here.
So enterotoxin provides a non-specific boost to the immune system.
The bottom line is that nobody really knows how the Staphylococcus toxoid vaccine works as a ME/CFS treatment. I would like to see more research into it, using the isolated components of the vaccine one by one, in order to work out which one(s) are having a benefit for ME/CFS.
So they are saying here that the higher neutralization capacity against alpha toxin found in good responders to the vaccine may just be a marker of a generally improved immune response.
So here we see that staphylococcal antigens also seem to boost cell-mediated immunity (cell-mediated immunity does not involve antibodies). Interestingly, Staphage Lysate (for dogs) is available here.
So enterotoxin provides a non-specific boost to the immune system.
The bottom line is that nobody really knows how the Staphylococcus toxoid vaccine works as a ME/CFS treatment. I would like to see more research into it, using the isolated components of the vaccine one by one, in order to work out which one(s) are having a benefit for ME/CFS.
One other thing against the aluminum hydroxide-adsorbed version of the Russian vaccine:
When there are adverse effects to vaccines, it has been speculated by Dr Yehuda Shoenfeld that the adjuvant in the vaccine may be responsible.
Dr Shoenfeld points out that the only vaccine that has never been linked to triggering any autoimmune disease is Pneumovax; all the other vaccines are linked to triggering autoimmunity. Now Pneumovax is the only vaccine that does not contain any adjuvants.
So I would be more concerned with the aluminum hydroxide adjuvant in the vaccine, more than any worries with the mercury preservative. If ME/CFS is an autoimmune condition, as the Norwegian rituximab studies suggest, then we don't really want to further provoke autoimmunity.
However, it is possible that both versions of the vaccine may contain an aluminum hydroxide adjuvant.
In fact, this is one of the questions that I would like Medgamal to answer: we know the adsorbed vaccine contains aluminum hydroxide, as this is used for the adsorption substrate; however, does the non-adsorbed vaccine also contain aluminum hydroxide, or contain some other type of adjuvant? (Aluminum hydroxide is a common adjuvant, but there are other types of adjuvants used in vaccines, such as squalene.)
Though the certificate of analysis documents that @hvac14400 posted earlier seem to suggest that there is no aluminum hydroxide in the non-adsorbed vaccine.
When there are adverse effects to vaccines, it has been speculated by Dr Yehuda Shoenfeld that the adjuvant in the vaccine may be responsible.
Dr Shoenfeld points out that the only vaccine that has never been linked to triggering any autoimmune disease is Pneumovax; all the other vaccines are linked to triggering autoimmunity. Now Pneumovax is the only vaccine that does not contain any adjuvants.
So I would be more concerned with the aluminum hydroxide adjuvant in the vaccine, more than any worries with the mercury preservative. If ME/CFS is an autoimmune condition, as the Norwegian rituximab studies suggest, then we don't really want to further provoke autoimmunity.
However, it is possible that both versions of the vaccine may contain an aluminum hydroxide adjuvant.
In fact, this is one of the questions that I would like Medgamal to answer: we know the adsorbed vaccine contains aluminum hydroxide, as this is used for the adsorption substrate; however, does the non-adsorbed vaccine also contain aluminum hydroxide, or contain some other type of adjuvant? (Aluminum hydroxide is a common adjuvant, but there are other types of adjuvants used in vaccines, such as squalene.)
Though the certificate of analysis documents that @hvac14400 posted earlier seem to suggest that there is no aluminum hydroxide in the non-adsorbed vaccine.
i was trying to make the same conclusion in my post, but failed, coz it's hard for me to write and construct sentences in english - most of the time i only read and understand texts, which is going fairly easy. 
is there concern against aluminum adjuvant only or any type of modern adjuvants? coz without this "booster" who knows how much more toxoid would be needed, maybe full 1ml for the first shot already.
is there concern against aluminum adjuvant only or any type of modern adjuvants? coz without this "booster" who knows how much more toxoid would be needed, maybe full 1ml for the first shot already.
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I am not sure, but I know the adjuvants linked to autoimmunity include: aluminum hydroxide, squalene and silicone.
Though it is not an established scientific fact that adjuvants can trigger autoimmunity; it is the hypothesis of Dr Yehuda Shoenfeld and other researchers.
What I find interesting is that when silicone breast implants develop a leak, sometimes this causes an ME/CFS-like condition and autoimmunity in women (ref: here).
Yes, I believe adjuvants are essential in vaccines, otherwise the vaccine may not take effect. But we need more research into adjuvant risks, and research into finding new adjuvants that are safer.
Interesting. That looks like a Staphylococcus toxoid vaccine (though for dogs).
I have seen two other human Staphylococcus vaccines for sale in Russia: see here (manufacturer info here), and also here. But I don't think these two are toxoid vaccines.
Though it is not an established scientific fact that adjuvants can trigger autoimmunity; it is the hypothesis of Dr Yehuda Shoenfeld and other researchers.
What I find interesting is that when silicone breast implants develop a leak, sometimes this causes an ME/CFS-like condition and autoimmunity in women (ref: here).
Yes, I believe adjuvants are essential in vaccines, otherwise the vaccine may not take effect. But we need more research into adjuvant risks, and research into finding new adjuvants that are safer.
Interesting. That looks like a Staphylococcus toxoid vaccine (though for dogs).
I have seen two other human Staphylococcus vaccines for sale in Russia: see here (manufacturer info here), and also here. But I don't think these two are toxoid vaccines.
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silly question of the day - what would happen, if instead of a normal vaccine i'll take adjuvant itself only? would it still boost my immune system status? coz that's what we aim for in the end - we don't need no particular vaccine in the first place.
@hvac14400
Good luck with Medgamal tomorrow.
Good luck with Medgamal tomorrow.
@hvac14400
If you get a chance ,could you ask Medgamal how long they would expect the vaccines to remain viable when not stored at recommended temperature?
Take care.
If you get a chance ,could you ask Medgamal how long they would expect the vaccines to remain viable when not stored at recommended temperature?
Take care.
I have to admit I have no idea of what would happen if someone administered a pure adjuvant to themselves, though I would not recommend it, because as mentioned earlier, adjuvants are speculatively associated with triggering autoimmunity.
I was surprised to discover that there is very little understanding of how adjuvants actually work. There is scant research in this area. This study found that the aluminum hydroxide adjuvant may work by inducing uric acid and activating dendritic cells.
I was surprised to discover that there is very little understanding of how adjuvants actually work. There is scant research in this area. This study found that the aluminum hydroxide adjuvant may work by inducing uric acid and activating dendritic cells.
lol - medgamal's website doesn't even work today, haha : )
so i called them - that was a truly BS conversation.
they don't know and haven't tested how long their product would stay stable outside of 2-8 deg. C range.
they just FAILED to explain how it's possible, that version without preservative has the same shell life - just some random bla-bla-bla, like "this is the way it is! what you want from me?!"
jesus christ
only adsorbed version contains adjuvant and preservative (mercury).
their product apparently contains alpha toxin only - that's why it called anatoxin and not a vaccine.
they said, that for initial vaccination we must use version without adsorbant, and then for supporting therapy that version with mercury.
i got additional phone number from them, but woman on the other end rejected my questions right away and started askin who i am, from where i am and why i think she would answer any of my questions in the firs place, so i think it's a dead end here, lol.
so i called them - that was a truly BS conversation.
they don't know and haven't tested how long their product would stay stable outside of 2-8 deg. C range.
they just FAILED to explain how it's possible, that version without preservative has the same shell life - just some random bla-bla-bla, like "this is the way it is! what you want from me?!"
jesus christ
only adsorbed version contains adjuvant and preservative (mercury).
their product apparently contains alpha toxin only - that's why it called anatoxin and not a vaccine.
they said, that for initial vaccination we must use version without adsorbant, and then for supporting therapy that version with mercury.
i got additional phone number from them, but woman on the other end rejected my questions right away and started askin who i am, from where i am and why i think she would answer any of my questions in the firs place, so i think it's a dead end here, lol.
i think it is possible to emulate staphypan to some extent, combining a bunch of different sh!t like lego - for example this "piece" probably contains some staph cell parts - http://www.biomedservice.ru/price/goods/1/8335
