ME/CFS patient @hamsterman went into full remission
from his ME/CFS after taking the protein GDF11 by injection for 2 months.
GDF11 (growth differentiation factor 11) is a protein which
is naturally made in the body, and is considered by researchers to be an
"elixir of youth" because of its ability to restore youthful
characteristics in organs such as the muscle, brain and heart when injected
into older animals. Ref: 1
For the first month on GDF11, Hamsterman noticed very
little in terms of amelioration in ME/CFS symptoms, apart from some
improvements in sleeping patterns, and feeling better in the mornings. But by
the end of the second month, he found he was in full remission from ME/CFS.
While taking GDF11, Hamsterman discovered that when he
tried to increase his GDF11 dose, he experienced bouts of fever and malaise.
When he reduced the dose again, the bout of fever and malaise ended. But he
noticed that after every bout of fever subsided, he felt better than before,
ie, his ME/CFS had improved. So possibly this fever may be the immune system
kicking into gear and fighting off the underlying infections.
Hamsterman has now been taking GDF11 for 3 months. It took
2 months to go into remission, and he has now been in remission for 1 month.
Hamsterman feels that if he were to stop taking GDF11
entirely, he might relapse, because he felt some symptoms start to come back
when he reduced the dose.
It should be noted that Hamsterman also has Crohn's disease
as well as ME/CFS. However, the GDF11 did not help his Crohn's, it only seemed
to work for the ME/CFS. He has had ME/CFS for 15
years, and back in 2016 it his ME/CFS severe, leaving him
in bedbound for most of the day; but just before he started GDF11 he was at the
moderate level of ME/CFS, on the scale of mild, moderate and
severe.
One possible confounding factor is that Hamsterman also
started taking the supplement nicotinamide mononucleotide (NMN) about 2 months
before he began the GDF11 (and then continued taking
NMN with the GDF11). He found NMN helped a bit, but he
doubts NMN is related to vast improvements he obtained during the second month
of taking GDF11.
Hamsterman gave me permission to post his story.
UPDATE: Hamsterman told me he is not getting
the same benefits as he originally obtained with GDF11, though has still
improved — see this post.
GDF11 is not an FDA-approved drug, and has not been
formally tested on humans. It it a protein which can only be bought for
research purposes, and is sold on the understanding it is not for human use.
But the body does make this substance itself, so it is naturally present in
humans.
Some people on the Longecity.org forum have experimented
with GDF11 in recent years, taking it for its assumed health and longevity
effects.
The main GDF11 thread on Longecity is here, but
there are other threads too.
And a GDF11 pioneer named Steve Perry has an info
website here.
The dosage of GDF11 used is incredibly tiny. Drug doses are
typically measured in milligram (mg) or micrograms (mcg). If we go 1000 times
smaller than micrograms, we get to nanograms (ng). And at 1000 times smaller
than nanograms, we have picograms (pg).
Well the doses of GDF11 used are measured in picograms. So
very tiny doses. Steve Perry suggests the GDF11 starting dose range is 100 to 500 picograms per day. Then he
says after 3 to 6 weeks, you should cut down to 10 to 20 picograms once a week. Ref: here
Hamsterman used a dose of 200 picograms (0.2 nanograms)
subcutaneously injected once every two days, for two months. This is equivalent
of 100 picograms a day, which is a dose at the bottom of the recommended range.
Since going into remission, Hamsterman has reduced his dose
to 100 picograms every 3 days, and then later to 40 picograms twice a week as
maintenance doses.
GDF11 can be obtained at buckylabs.com, which sells sells 10
micrograms for $80. (Perhaps 10 μg seems a small amount, but my
calculation, that will last you for 274 years when using daily picogram doses!)
I was fascinated by Hamsterman's ME/CFS remission, so
decided to try GDF11 myself. I bought some GDF11 from Buckylabs, and on 13
March 2020 injected my first 200 picogram dose. I then followed the same dosing
protocol as Hamsterman, injecting 200 picograms subcutaneously every other day.
I continued this for 25 days, later increasing the dose to
400 picograms once every two days.
I have not noticed any improvements in ME/CFS symptoms yet,
but Hamsterman did not notice anything in the first month either.
The only side effect I am getting is some mental agitation,
anger and irritability, making it hard to relax mentally. My guess is that
GDF11 may be increasing testosterone, as I always find testosterone-boosting
supplements cause an angry and irritable mental state in me. So now I am taking
a short break from GDF11, and will restart at a lower dose, to try to avoid
this side effect.
Other than that, I've noticed no other effects yet, good or
bad. But Hamsterman's experience suggests the improvements, if they manifest,
will not appear until the second month.
So I have another month to go, at least, before I will be
able to pass verdict on GDF11.
You may wonder how it's possible to measure out such tiny
200 picogram doses. When I bought the GDF11 from Bucklabs, it arrived in a
little glass bottle containing a tiny speck of white powder about the size of a
sugar grain, which was the 10 micrograms of lyophilized (freeze dried) GDF11
protein.
Those familiar with reconstituting lyophilized proteins and peptides will know how to inject
bacteriostatic water into the little glass bottle to dissolve the protein into
water, in the process of making it ready for injection.
The trick with picogram dosing is serial dilution the GDF11
using two or more bottles of bacteriostatic water.
You add the dissolved GDF11 into the first bottle of
bacteriostatic water, mix, then take out a tiny but measured fraction of the
water from that bottle using a hypodermic needle and a 1 ml insulin syringe,
and inject that into a second bottle of bacteriostatic water. This greatly
dilutes the GDF11. But you have to do this precisely, exactly calculating your
dilution process.
If you get your dose dilution calculations wrong, you could
end up injecting yourself with a GDF11 dose far higher than a picogram dose,
which might be dangerous. Full details on how I measured out my tiny GDF11
doses given in this post.
What are the risks or side effects of using GDF11? Well, we
are entering uncharted territory here, as there is very little research on
GDF11. Regarding these dangers, Steve Perry on his website says:
Hundreds of people have taken GDF11 and there have been no
fatalities or serious side effects. However, this does not mean you won't have
issues. The human body is an extraordinarily complex machine and it is possible
that there is some outlier scenario where GDF11 could have adverse effects.
Perry is not a medical scientist though. He's just the
first person to ever try GDF11, and now has a business advising people who want
to take GDF11.
So no guarantee of safety at all, except that hundreds of
people have tried it so far, with no serious side effects as yet.
That said, startup company Elevian has
been researching the beneficial effects of GDF11 in animal studies, and is
planning GDF11 human clinical trial shortly:
In tests, Elevian has found that giving recombinant
GDF11 to older animals stimulates stem cells to repair the tissue damaged by
aging and degeneration. The animals in those studies showed a reduction in
age-related cardiac hypertrophy, youthful skeletal muscle repair, improved
brain function and metabolism, reversal of renal and pulmonary disease and
tumor suppression.
...
Elevian plans to start a human clinical trial in two years
[written in Sept 2018]
Source: here
Further Info
•
Wikipedia
article on GDF11
•
Startups Flock to Turn Young Blood Into an Elixir of
Youth —
WIRED
•
An
ingredient for the elixir of youth — Cell
Research | Nature
•
GDF11 stimulates adiponectin and induces a calorie restriction‐like phenotype in aged mice
•
GDF11 leads to a 50% increase in the volume of blood vessels in old mice
•
Steve Perry Website
•
Steve
Perry Video Presentation Sep 2019
•
Results of my 5 years of injecting exogenous GDF11 — Steve Perry
Last edited:
Mar 28, 2021
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#1
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Apr 13, 2020
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This is fascinating .... and a little frightening .....
please keep posting on your progress and status, yes? Just so we don't worry
.... you're a brave soul, @Hip .... Last edited:
Apr 14, 2020 ..... and straight on til morning.
#2
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Wow awesome! I've been waiting for more news and research
about GDF11. I saw Steve Perry's RADFEST presentation (forget which year, 2017
I think), which was pretty good.
Maybe this is the "lack
of 'something in the blood'" in CFS patients. (Unlikely, bc Ron Davis was
able to filter out something.) How did you hear about @hamsterman 's remission? What was
his CFS onset / illness background like?
Last edited:
Apr 13, 2020
#3
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Hip said:
The dosage of GDF11 used is incredibly tiny. Drug doses are
typically measured in milligram (mg) or micrograms (mcg). If we go 1000 times
smaller than micrograms, we get to nanograms (ng). And at 1000 times smaller
than nanograms, we have picograms (pg).
Well the doses of GDF11 used are measured in picograms. So
very tiny doses. Steve Perry suggests the GDF11 starting dose range is 100 to
500 picograms per day. Ref:
Hamsterman used a dose of 200 picograms (0.2 nanograms)
subcutaneously injected once every two days. This is equivalent of 100
picograms a day, which is a dose at the bottom of the recommended range.
I too use incredible tiny dosages with the best success,
now not GDF11.
Wikipedia say it has pro-neurogenic effects. Such were in
essence also my interpretation of the actions of the stuff I take, but for the
most of them it cannot already argued for, literature wise. Importantly, I take
the different molecules or atoms, respectively, not together. And it can easily
be overdone.
Further on, good luck!
#4
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@percyval577 are you saying you use
small doses of GDF11 and get good benefits from it?
#5
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YippeeKi YOW !! said:
This is fascinating .... and a little frightening .....
please keep posting on your progress and status, yes? Just so we don't worry
.... your a brave soul, @Hip ....
Fascinating and frightening were exactly my thoughts as
well!
#6
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knackers323 said:
@percyval577 are you saying you use
small doses of GDF11 and get good benefits from it?
NO, I havn´t
tested it.
I use small dose of other stuff, and its with the most of
stuff I figured out, that it is importantly
small dose*.
In addition I think that the action is on making (SOME) new
synpases (like GDF11), or resolving
synapses.
Only in some cases there is literature.
*It´s these ones: B5, B7, B2, B1 ---- Zn, Ni, (Cr) ---
VitC, citrate, acetate --- Se, seldom B12
I have also some stuff in normal dose, Se again, Zn
possible, and [Cr, Tyr, gaba, taurin]. Eating chocolate sometimes.
EDIT: I stopped it for now, working on a second avoidance:
carbs (=sugar starch), next to my most important manganese avoidance. But it
seems already that I will reinvent it, along the two avoidances. Last edited: Apr 14, 2020
#7
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@Hip is there any relation or
crossover between HGH and GDF11?
#8
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Apr 14, 2020
knackers323 said:
@Hip is there any relation or crossover between HGH and
GDF11?
GDF11 definitely is a cell growth factor substance, and
cell differentiation substance.
GDF11 is part of the transforming
growth factor beta (TGF-β)
family which controls cell proliferation and differentiation, and more
specifically, is part of the growth
differentiation factors subfamily.
In that subfamily you have GDF1 to GDF15, each with their own functions.
TGF-β1 is known to be elevated in ME/CFS. I don't know
if that has any direct significance for the possible benefits of GDF11 in
ME/CFS, but apparently GDF11 can bind to TGF-β1
receptors.
Ref: 1
In terms of GDF11's growth factor effects:
GDF11 has been shown to
increase the number of neural stem cells
in the brain:
GDF11 also reverses aging in the brain. Older mice
injected with the protein experienced an increase in neural stem cells and
renewed development of blood vessels. His team also found that the older mice
treated with the protein recovered function in their ability to smell odors,
like mint, typically only detected by younger mice.
And GDF11 appears to be able to repair damaged DNA in muscle stem cells:
“Based on other studies, we think that the
accumulation of DNA damage in muscle stem cells might reflect an inability of
the cells to properly differentiate to make mature muscle cells, which is
needed for adequate muscle repair.”
GDF11 increased the volume of blood vessels in mice, one study found:
The volume of blood vessels in GDF11-treated old mice
increased by 50%
This paper says
GDF11 improves brain blood vessels:
Recombinant GDF11 (rGDF11) treatment improves
the cerebral vasculature and enhances neurogenesis
This study says:
Our new study demonstrates that GDF11 enhances hippocampal neurogenesis, improves vasculature and increases markers of neuronal activity and
plasticity in the hippocampus and cortex of old mice.
Given that in ME/CFS there is a reduced blood circulation
in the brain, this improvement of the brain's vascular system induce by GDF11
might have an impact on the disease.
But GDF11 research is in its infancy, and other
studies have questioned these growth effects, and indeed, some studies have
found injecting GDF11 worsens muscle repair: The leading theory for why the
blood of younger mice rejuvenates the muscles of older mice is now in contest.
The vampiric exchange of young blood and old blood has long been reported to
have anti-aging effects, but it was in 2013 when Harvard University researchers
first linked GDF-11, a molecule that circulates in the blood, to this effect.
Now, an analysis that set out to see how GDF-11 works in
the muscles published May 19 in Cell Metabolism found just the opposite.
...
They also show that regularly injecting mice with pure
GDF-11 causes muscle repair to worsen.
...
"Clearly, like the mythical fountain of youth, GDF11
is not the long sought rejuvenation factor," write Caroline Brun and
Michael A. Rudnicki
Source: here
We know when blood from young animals is placed into older
animals, there is a rejuvenation effect, and researchers have long sought the
factors in the young blood that are responsible for this rejuvenation. GDF11
was singled out as the leading contender for the rejuvenation effects of young
blood, but other factors are likely also involved.
Oxytocin,
the love hormone, has also been singled out as being on of the rejuvenation
factors in young blood. And so has CCL11
(eotaxin-1), a chemokine. Ref: 1
It's interesting that oxytocin was one of Dr Jay
Goldstein's ME/CFS treatments, which seemed to work well for a small subset of
ME/CFS patients. I tried oxytocin injections and nasal sprays years ago, but it
did not really help my ME/CFS.
Note that I would think supplemental GDF11 might
possibly be risky in pregnancy,
assuming it can cross the placenta, as GDF11:
controls anterior-posterior patterning by regulating
the expression of Hox genes.
Source: GDF11 Wikipedia
Anterior-posterior patterning and Hox genes relate to
development of the embryo, so that suggests taking
supplemental GDF11 would not be advisable during pregnancy, if that is, GDF11
can cross the placenta.
Last edited:
Apr 17, 2020
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#9
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I think HGH is also has these same benefits that GDF11 is
supposed to have doesn’t it?
And since HGH has had much more study done on it, apart
from the cost, is there any reason that GDF11 would be a better option than
HGH?
#10
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knackers323 said:
I think HGH is also has these same benefits that GDF11 is
supposed to have doesn’t it?
And since HGH has had much more study done on it, apart
from the cost, is there any reason that GDF11 would be a better option than
HGH?
All growth factors have very specific effects, so you
cannot really substitute one for another.
And a study found HGH provided no
major benefit for ME/CFS patients.
Though there was once a patient on this forum who was
diagnosed with ME/CFS for 10 years, but it turned out she had HGH deficiency,
and all her symptoms rapidly disappeared once given HGH injections.
However, apart from that, I don't think HGH will be of any
great help for ME/CFS. I tried a few short courses of HGH 1 IU daily injections
a few years back, and it did not help me.
Last edited:
Apr 14, 2020
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#11
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Did you use actual hgh or hgh releasing peptides?
I’ve tried hgh to good effect previously but had to stop
due to the cost
I am going to try again soon though
#12
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Apr 14, 2020
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Likes:Mary and YippeeKi YOW !!
knackers323 said:
Did you use actual hgh or hgh releasing peptides?
Both, and neither really did much for me. I tried various
HGHreleasing peptides first; but then I read a post by the above ME/CFS patient
with HGH deficiency that HGH-releasing peptides did not fix her deficiency at
all, but actual HGH did. So then I bought some HGH from a reliable source to
try, but no joy.
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#13
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2,582
Hip said:
And a study found HGH provided no
major benefit for ME/CFS patients.
...
However, apart from that, I don't think HGH will be of any
great help for ME/CFS. I tried a few short courses of HGH 1 IU daily injections
a few years back, and it did not help me.
I've tried HGH for 9 months using the real deal HGH from my
pharmacy (It was expensive). And did not notice anything. Though I tested
normal for HGH levels on the glucagon stimulation test.
Researchers who were searching for the "elixir of
youth" in young blood had to
have considered and eliminated HGH as a possibility.
#14
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Here is some useful info about GDF11 overdosing side effects, which comes from a document written
by Steve Perry entitled: Results of my 5 years of injecting exogenous GDF11:
Dosing
GDF11 and Side Effects
It appears that overdoses of GDF11 are not lethal, just
uncomfortable. Unfortunately, I did not have a patient zero to turn to, so I
had to guess what a reasonable dose would be based on mouse studies. I started
with 50 ug (1,000,000x more than I take now), got side effects in a week, cut
dose by half, got side effects in a week, cut dose in half again, etc.
The side effects of excessive GDF11 are dyspnea (shortness of breath), acid reflux (also known as
GERD), insomnia, elevated blood
pressure and in rare cases arrhythmia.
If you follow my dosing guidelines below, extreme dyspnea
is highly unlikely. Though as you down regulate, a bout or two of insomnia
could be experienced and others have reported this.
From the same document, Perry recommended checking blood pressure:
And as with many exogenous peptides (think GH or
testosterone), excess GDF11 can raise your blood pressure. Monitor your blood
pressure every morning carefully – if it goes up, take a GDF11 “holiday” and
cut the dose.
And he says heart
rate variability (HRV) is also useful to measure, and says you have to
watch out for heart arrhythmia side effects (which can be detected with a HRV
monitor):
Heart rate variability (HRV) is an even better
biomarker that can be done at home. Your HRV, RMSSD and PNN50 should improve on
GDF11. Excess GDF11 will have the opposite effect, so logging and watching your
HRV readings is highly recommended. Instructions on purchasing an HRV monitor
(cost $50) are on GDF11Rejuvenation.com.
In a few cases, we have HRV RMSSD become “high and
spikey” which suggests arrhythmia.
Note: RMSSD reflects the beat-to-beat variance in hear
rate. pNN50 is another HRV measurement.
Interesting that GDF11 has effects on the circadian rhythm: Speaking of insomnia,
GDF11 enforces circadian rhythms and I almost always wake up 8 hours after I go
to sleep. There is no “sleeping in” on GDF11. Note that if you are taking too
much GDF11, you will wake up earlier than you usually do, and if you take way
too much you won’t sleep at all. If insomnia occurs, discontinue GDF11 for a
few days and cut the dose in half.
I notice while taking GDF11 that I am sleeping less than
normal, but not feeling tired when I get up, in spite of the fewer hours of
sleep. However, GDF11 has fixed my ME/CFS delayed sleep cycle (ie, I still go
to bed very late around 4 am, and get up about 1 pm).
In terms of getting the dose right, and avoiding side
effects, Perry says:
We have recently discovered that moving averages of
BP, pulse, HRV and reaction time are the best way to fine tune your GDF11 dose.
So he suggests monitoring these parameters, and adjusting
the dose if the trends go out of wack. If side effects do appear, the usual
action is to stop taking the GDF11 for say a week, and then restart at a lower
dose.
The GDF11 dosing protocol he suggests is:
My current recommendations are a starting dose of 100 to
500 pg/day. Then watch trending and take a holiday/cut dose if trending is
going the wrong direction.
Within 3 to 6 weeks, you should down regulate and
need only 10 to 20 pg once/week.
All the above comes from this document: Results of my 5 years of injecting exogenous GDF11,
which is recommended reading.
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#15
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@Hip why are you reporting
this for @hamsterman ?
Do you think he might agree to
an interview on @ScottTriGuy ’s podcast show?
He went from bed bound to mild or to completely cured?
Also is there a verified COA for the product?
Thanks
#16
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@Hip - Years ago when first
seeing my ME/CFS specialist, he told me about a patient with severe ME/CFS
symptoms who developed an infection (I can’t remember what he said the person
was diagnosed with) and ended up hospitalized in the ICU with a very high fever
(I believe in the 106 range, but once again the specific details are a little
fuzzy because the story was told to me about 10 years ago). They were sure the
patient was not going to make it, but after about five days the high fever
finally broke and the person had a full recovery from the infection and all
symptoms of ME/CFS had also disappeared.
They felt it was the high fever and not the drugs that were
given for the infection that had somehow reset the body for recovery from
ME/CFS. There had historically been a couple of other cases like this
(infection with high fever) and then a full recovery from the acute infection and
a simultaneous recovery from the chronic ME/CFS illness. But this occurrence
was so rare that it was only a hypothesis that the “high fever” was the driver
of the reset. As far as this doctor knew the patient did not have a return of
ME/CFS symptoms (symptom free for 5+ years when I was told about this recovery
story). But because ME/CFS has been known to have long periods of remission and
then suddenly years later something seems to trigger a relapse, it may not have
been an actual full recovery unless it could be shown over a much longer period
of time.
Do you think that the biology of a “high sustained fever”
could somehow correlate to changes in the blood/ blood vessels as seen that may
be occurring with the use of GDF11 or a similar substance?
Edit - I found this study from 2016 about fever and
infection that discusses what we know about this topic and what has so far been
missing from research into this
topic. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4869589/
Last edited:
Apr 15, 2020
#17
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jaybee00 said:
@Hip why are you reporting this for @hamsterman ?
Do you think he might agree to an interview on @ScottTriGuy
’s podcast show?
Hamsterman contacted me personally to report his gains
about six weeks ago, and said he would get around to posting a thread on PR at
some point; but I thought people here might want to know sooner, that's why I
started this thread. I also find posting threads, and the discussion which
ensues, helps me better absorb and understand the material, because I find you
learn things more in-depth when talking to others.
Hamsterman is also the person who innovated the clever use
of one-off corticosteroids just before going to a gym, allowing him to do a
full gym workout without any PEM repercussions — see the PEM busters thread. By
going to the gym once a week like this, Hamsterman was able to cure his POTS
(which often responds well to exercise). But on non-corticosteroid days, he
remained a severe mostly bedbound patient.
You'd have to contact him to ask if he's happy to do an
interview. I would say it is a bit too early, as at the moment, Hamsterman is
experimenting with the dosage level for the maintenance dose regimen. He's
finding when he doses too low, the ME/CFS symptoms start coming back. And if he
doses to high, the fever and malaise come back. So it's still early days,
trying to work these things out.
Steve Perry recommends a maintenance dose in the range of
10 to 20 picograms once a week. Hamsterman has been experimenting with
maintenance doses of 100 picograms every 3 days, and later lowered to 40
picograms twice a week.
Hamsterman has also tried returning back to the full dose
of 200 picograms every other day, and found when he did so, he got a surge of
energy.
jaybee00 said:
He went from bed bound to mild or to completely cured?
When I asked him how severe his ME/CFS was, he said:
At my lowest, around 2016, I was mostly bed-bound. The brainfog and sensory
stimulation aversion to was so bad, I couldn't do much of anything, other than
watch a little TV later in the day.
I am not quite sure of the ME/CFS level he was at just
before starting GDF11, but I will ask to clarify. After the 2 months of GDF11,
he told me:
Now I basically feel 100% cured. I genuinely don't have
CFS/ME at all. I do have 'headaches', and a very subtle 'mini-fevers' that pop
in and out, and I do still like to take a nap during the late afternoon, but
nothing else. I can wake up, and feel 'refreshed', which has never happened
once in the last 15 years.
It wasn't just a matter of gaining energy, it was losing
all the horrible brain/sensory problems that made life so miserable.
EDIT: I asked
Hamsterman your question, and he clarified that he was severe in 2016, but just
before starting the GDF11 he was at the moderate level of ME/CFS.
jaybee00 said:
Also is there a verified COA for the product?
I did not notice any COA when I received the product, but I
always tend to throw invoices and any sales bumf away immediately without reading
them. You would have to contact Buckylabs. Though in any case, I am not sure a
COA certificate (which typically tells you heavy metals etc are below the
maximum permitted amount) makes much sense in the context of buying 10
micrograms of a product. Last edited: Apr 17, 2020
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#18
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Wally said:
Do you think that the biology of a “high sustained fever”
could somehow correlate to changes in the blood/ blood vessels as seen that may
be occurring with the use of GDF11 or a similar substance?
I pointed out to Hamsterman that when Dr John Chia uses the
immunomodulator oxymatrine to treat ME/CFS patients, Chia notes that after
around 6 weeks or so on oxymatrine, patients may experience a sudden bout of
fever for several days, like coming down with the flu. After that fever is
over, patients typically feel much better, and their ME/CFS is substantially
improved. Dr Chia thinks the fever may be the immune system clearing the
viruses and other infections linked to ME/CFS.
So maybe the same could be true with GDF11, maybe that
fever is an indication the immune system working. I suspect during the fever
it's not just the high temperature that's having an effect; it may be a whole
coordinated immune response mounted by the body, of which the fever is one
aspect.
In my case, I have not experienced any fevers or malaise on
GDF11, even when I increased the dose to 400 picograms every other day. Maybe
that's a bad thing, because maybe you need the fevers in order for GDF11 to
work for ME/CFS, which is a virally-associated disease.
Last edited:
Apr 15, 2020
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#19
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junkcrap50 said:
What was his CFS onset / illness background like?
I missed that question earlier. This is what Hamsterman
said in a personal conversation with me:
My CFS/ME was caused/triggered by Crohns, but it doesn't go
away when the Crohns is in remission, it really becomes it's own separate
disease. It's sorta like post-viral CFS, after the infection, it just sorta
lingers as it's own disease.
There is a possibility, that I do in actuality have
post-viral CFS/ME. The reason I say this, is that before I got CFS/ME, I caught
the flu, but after the typical symptoms went away, I had severe fatigue/malaise
that lasted about 50 days, and it wasn't from a bacterial infection or
anything. I had never experienced anything like it before. But after this, it
went away, and I felt fine.
But the following year, I started my decent into gradual
onset CFS. It's possible that Crohns, and other autoimmune diseases, make the
body more 'susceptible' to contracting post-viral CFS
Watch
All
growth factors have very specific effects, so you cannot really substitute one
for another.
And
a study found HGH provided no
major benefit for ME/CFS patients.
Though
there was once a patient on this forum who was diagnosed with ME/CFS for 10
years, but it turned out she had HGH deficiency, and all her symptoms rapidly
disappeared once given HGH injections.
However,
apart from that, I don't think HGH will be of any great help for ME/CFS. I
tried a few short courses of HGH 1 IU daily injections a few years back, and it
did not help me.
knackers323 said:
@Hip
do you remember the members name that took the HGH?
|
It's great that there are
people like you out there brave enough to do such experiments on themselves
and share the results. You and hamsterman should be commended for that.
We need more people like
you guys. If let's say 10 different people took this drug and got cured, that
would be evidence enough for others to try it as well and more importantly to
convince researchers to do serious trials on the drug and hopefully get it
approved as a treatment.
So
good luck and keep us updated!
#23
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borko2100 said:
It's
great that there are people like you out there brave enough to do such
experiments on themselves and share the results.
You
and hamsterman should be commended for that.
hopeforaday22 said:
Is
this GDF11 only injectable? Or tablets as well?
It
seems very interesting. From where do people get this?
I have been
asked how I prepared GDF11 powder for injection in tiny picogram doses, so I am
going to detail this here. The trick with picogram dosing is serial dilution of
the GDF11 protein using two bottles of bacteriostatic water, as explained
below.
What You Will Need
Items you need
to prepare GDF11 for injection:
•
Two 30 ml bottles of Hospira
bacteriostatic water
•
A box of 1 ml sterile insulin syringes
•
A box of fine 30 gauge (0.3 mm) sterile
hypodermic needles
Bottle of GDF11
powder, two 30 ml bacteriostatic water bottles, 1 ml syringe, 30 gauge needles
Lok (where needles lock on).
I use very fine
30 gauge hypodermic needles which are only 0.3 mm thick, because I am not a fan
of large fat needles! You can buy 30 gauge sterile needles here in
the UK. In the US search here. If
you are using Luer slip syringes, make sure you get the corresponding Luer slip
needles to go with them.
Hospira
bacteriostatic water you can buy here in the UK (it's expensive
in the UK, at £15 a bottle), and here in
the US. You can get plain bacteriostatic water or sodium chloride
bacteriostatic water; either is fine. You need two 30 ml bottles of
bacteriostatic water. Hospira is the high quality brand of bacteriostatic
water.
The Procedure for Preparing GDF11 for Injection
The 10
micrograms of GDF11 from Buckylabs arrives in a small sterile glass bottle,
containing a tiny white speck of powder no larger than a sugar grain.
Snap off the
plastic top protectors (shown in green in the above picture) from the two
bottles of bacteriostatic water, and break off the plastic top protector from
the Buckylabs bottle. This will reveal a gray rubber area in the center of a
metal cap. Note that these bottles are never opened: liquid is introduced or
removed from them by inserting a hypodermic needle through the rubber.
You want to
clearly label one of your bacteriostatic water bottles as the MASTER, and the
other bacteriostatic water bottle as the
SECONDARY.
Then take a
sterile needle and place it onto a syringe. Now push the needle through the
rubber top of the MASTER bacteriostatic water bottle, and draw out
approximately 1 ml of water into the
syringe. Pull
out the needle from the MASTER bottle, and then push this needle through the
rubber top of the Bucklabs bottle, and inject in that 1 ml of water into the
Bucklabs bottle.
Withdraw the
needle, and give the Bucklabs bottle a vigorous shake for about a minute, to
make sure all the GDF11 protein in the tiny white speck dissolves in the water.
When the speck can no longer be seen, then all the GDF11 will be dissolved in
the water.
Now re-insert
the needle back into the Bucklabs bottle, and draw out every last drop of the
water into the syringe, and re-inject that syringe full of water back into the
MASTER bacteriostatic water bottle.
Once you have
done this, without pulling out the needle, give the MASTER bottle a brief
shake, and then draw out about 1 ml of water from the MASTER bottle into the
syringe, and then immediately re-inject that water back into the MASTER bottle;
this is done in order to wash out the needle and syringe of any high
concentration liquid. Repeat this wash out step a few times. Then withdraw the
needle.
Give the MASTER
bottle a good shake for 15 seconds to mix it thoroughly.
So now in the
MASTER bottle you will have 10 micrograms (10,000 nanograms) of GDF11 dissolved
in 30 ml of bacteriostatic water. Which means that in 1 ml of water from the
MASTER bottle, you will have 10000 / 30 = 333.3
nanograms of GDF11. And in each 0.1 ml, you will have 33.3 nanograms of GDF11.
Right, so now we are going to draw out some liquid from the
MASTER
bottle, and inject a precise 0.1 ml amount into the SECONDARY bottle of
bacteriostatic water. So insert the needle into the MASTER bottle, draw out
approximately 0.2 ml, and withdraw the needle from the bottle.
With
the syringe held vertically and the needle pointing upwards, flick the syringe
sharply with your fingernail to get out any air bubbles from the liquid in the
syringe. We are going to inject a precise 0.1 ml amount into the SECONDARY
bottle, so we need to remove out any air bubbles, otherwise it will affect our
measurement of the 0.1 ml amount.
With
the syringe still held vertically, press in the plunger and squirt out some of
the liquid from the end of the needle, until the rubber bottom of the plunger
lines up with the 0.1 ml mark on the syringe. Thus now we have precisely 0.1 ml
of liquid ready to inject into the SECONDARY bottle. So now you insert the
needle into the SECONDARY bacteriostatic water bottle, and inject in the 0.1 ml
of liquid. It is important that you inject in precisely 0.1 ml, no more or no
less. Withdraw the needle and give the SECONDARY bottle a good shake for 15
seconds.
That
0.1 ml of liquid you injected will contain 33.3
nanograms of
GDF11, so that means in the SECONDARY bottle we now have 33.3 /
(30+0.1) = 1.1 ng per ml, and thus 0.11 ng of GDF11 per
0.1 ml.
So finally we end up with the SECONDARY bottle containing 0.11 ng of
GDF11 per 0.1 ml of water. Or equivalently, we can say:
There are 110
picograms of GDF11 in each 0.1 ml of liquid drawn from the SECONDARY bottle
So if you are aiming for a GDF11 dose of say 220 picograms
administered once every two days, you would draw out 0.2 ml
from the SECONDARY bottle, and inject that subcutaneously
every two days.
Storing Bacteriostatic Water Bottles in the Fridge
Bacteriostatic
water bottles must be stored in the fridge, and only taken out when you want to
perform an injection. Be very careful not to mix up the MASTER and SECONDARY
bottles. When injecting, you only want to draw from the SECONDARY bottle. The
concentration of GDF11 in the MASTER bottle is far too high for injection
purposes. You might want to wrap your MASTER bottle with clingfilm or aluminum
foil to prevent you accidentally mistaking it for the SECONDARY bottle when you
are going to inject.
Once your
SECONDARY bottle runs out, you can buy a fresh bottle of bacteriostatic water,
and create a new SECONDARY bottle by again injecting 0.1 ml from the MASTER
bottle, using the steps above. Each time you create a new SECONDARY bottle, you
will only draw out a tiny amount from the MASTER, so the MASTER bottle should
in principle last indefinitely.
However in
reality, bacteriostatic water bottles are only supposed to last for 28 days
once you have started using them, at least according to the manufacturer's
instructions, and after that the levels of bacterial growth in the bottle may
increase. Though I have heard that those injecting GDF11 keep their
bacteriostatic water bottles for a year in the fridge before throwing them
away. Whether it is safe to keep them that long, I am not sure. It might be
possible to keep them longer than 28 days, but I am not so sure about a year.
If you are going to try to extent the lifespan of these
bacteriostatic
water
bottles in the fridge, I would suggest placing them in the coldest part of the
fridge, where the temperature is below 5°C (below 5°C bacteria grow much more
slowly). Next to the cooling element at the back of the fridge is typically
around 5°C. But I would try to make sure the liquid does not freeze, as perhaps
this could be harmful to the GDF11 protein (you can freeze the dry lyophilized
GDF11 protein, but once it is reconstituted by dissolving into water, my guess
is that freezing the water might stress and damage the protein).
I
bought a digital fridge thermometer with maximum and minimum temperature
recording to ensure that the temp in the area I placed by bacteriostatic water
bottles was below 5°C, but remained above 0°C.
Another
way to help reduce the bacterial levels in the bottle is to disinfect the
rubber stopper with alcohol just before you push the hypodermic needle through
the top. That helps prevent bacteria entering the bottle via the needle. I
always disinfect my rubber tops in this way before pushing in the needle.
Steve
Perry also provides some GDF11 preparation instructions in this document, but
they are a bit complicated, so hopefully the instructions I provided above will
be simpler.
Remember
that GDF11 is not sold for human consumption, and clinical trials of GDF11 on
humans are planned soon but have not yet taken place, so at this stage, if you
want to experiment with this, you are doing so at your own risk.
Last edited: Apr 23, 2020
New Patient? ➤ ME/CFS — A
Roadmap for Testing and Treatment
Hip said:
I
know a third forum member who has just now purchased some GDF11 and will be
trying it shortly, so that's another ME/CFS patient whose outcome we can
follow.
|
@Hip how far in are you with
this, did you reach month 2 yet?
I've had a ton of success
for BPC-157(overall) and LL-37 healed all my stomach issues completely, now I
just need to work on the energy increase to get me to 90% recovered and I'm
eyeing this GDF11 as well
#28
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beatsmyth said:
LL-37
healed all my stomach issues completely
beatsmyth said:
@Hip how far in are you
with this, did you reach month 2 yet?
I've
had to take a week's break now due to agitation / anxiety / overstimulation /
anger / irritability side effects that GDF11 was causing me. I've heard this
side effect is not uncommon with GDF11.
I started taking GDF11 on 13 March 2020, and
so that's 48 days so far, but minus the 7 days break, which is 41 days. I am
not seeing any substantial improvements to my ME/CFS so far. But when I do take
GDF11, it tends to cause this agitated aggressive driven state of mind, which
feels like I am more motivated an energetic, but it's more like a stimulant
effect than true energy.
GDF11 also seems to improve mood a bit, perhaps because of
this angry driven state it creates. But I don't like that mental state; it's
perturbing and does not let you relax.
At present, I've reduced my GDF11 dose level down to 100
picograms every 4 or 5 days, to try to minimize the agitation side effect. And
I might go even lower soon.
Steve Perry suggests after the initial 3 to 6 weeks on
high-dose GDF11, you should cut down to only 10 to 20 picograms once a week. I
may not go that low yet, but I might aim for say 50 picograms per week soon.
beatsmyth said:
I've had a ton of success for BPC-157(overall) and LL-37
healed all my stomach issues completely
Very
interesting. Can you say which of your symptoms BPC-157 and LL-37 have
addressed, in addition to your stomach symptoms?
I've
tried BPC-157, and found it also caused some agitation and anxiety side
effects, which is why I did not pursue it. But have not tried LL-37 myself yet.
I've
read good things about LL-37 on Reddit,
where it's reported to fix SIBO. So it seems effective for the gut.
Hip said:
I know a third forum
member who has just now purchased some GDF11 and will be trying it shortly, so
that's another ME/CFS patient whose outcome we can follow.
This
would probably be me Just waiting for my
injection supplies to arrive and I'll be starting up. I'll report back here for
sure.
#31
junkcrap50 said:
What did LL-37 do for
you? How did it heal your stomach? I didn't think it worked on the gut in anyway.
On
reddit there's a peptides sub, and saw a few people talk about their gut issues
disappear using LL-37 as well as athletes foots and any fungal issues. I have
had 10 years recurring athletes foot that produced painful cracks skin on my
pinky toe fold/crease (where it meets the rest of the foot). So I bought it
specifically for the athletes foot issues (tried everything and it never went
away). Surprisingly it fixed my IBS, leaky gut issues, and also my stomach was
super sensitive and wrecked from 4 years of pain killers from CFS/Fibro nerve
pain.
3
months later, all my stomach issues are gone and athletes foot entirely gone.
BPC-157 and LL-37 have been absolutely miraculous for me, I'm now working part
time after 10 years bed bound and on good days I hover around 80-90% healthy.
Now I just need something to bring my energy levels back to normal.
I
should also add that before I did the peptides, I did an 8-month
long ABX treatment according to Dr. Brownsteins's protocol
for CFS/Fibro, and also low dose Potassium Iodide and Selenium have had a
tremendous impact on my healing, as well as low dose Metformin 125mg daily to
fix the nerve sheath coverings.
I
will be writing an extensive protocol report that combines Dr. Brownstein's
Protocol with Peptides and diet. (Gluten free was major for me) as well as
Metformin, however this is after ABX therapy. And the final part I am trying to
solve is the energy issues #32
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junkcrap50 Senior
Member
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Thanks @beatsmyth for replying. I'm
interested in it because I'm huge into peptides after Thymosin Alpha-1 and
Beta-4 have been game changes for me. I kind of just want to try every peptide
out there! Also I've heard about LL37 as being offered as a product to combat
COVID.
And
I'm revisiting my gut right now after discovering I'm iron deficient and
hypomagnesemic. Also a year ago I tested borderline on SIBO breath test but
decided against SIBO treatment. I've been gluten free for 9 years but cheat
every now
beatsmyth said:
I'm now working part
time after 10 years bed bound and on good days I hover around 80-90% healthy.
That's
incredible! So would you say that after 3 months, the combo of BPC-157 and
LL-37 has taken you from severe to mild, on the ME/CFS scale of: very severe,
severe, moderate, mild, remission?
What
actual doses of these products were you taking during the 3 month period? And
do you find that you have to keep taking them to prevent the ME/CFS symptoms
returning? Or has their beneficial effect been semi-permanent?
Would you happen to
know which pathogens your ME/CFS is associated with (eg, coxsackievirus B,
echovirus, Epstein-Barr 
virus,
cytomegalovirus, HHV-6, etc)?
beatsmyth said:
On
reddit there's a peptides sub, and saw a few people talk about their gut issues
disappear using LL-37 as well as athletes foots and any fungal issues. I have
had 10 years recurring athletes foot that produced painful cracks skin on my
pinky toe fold/crease (where it meets the rest of the foot). So I bought it
specifically for the athletes foot issues (tried everything and it never went
away). Surprisingly it fixed my IBS, leaky gut issues, and also my stomach was
super sensitive and wrecked from 4 years of pain killers from CFS/Fibro nerve
pain.
3
months later, all my stomach issues are gone and athletes foot entirely gone.
BPC-157 and LL-37 have been absolutely miraculous for me, I'm now working part
time after 10 years bed bound and on good days I hover around 80-90% healthy.
Now I just need something to bring my energy levels back to normal.
I
should also add that before I did the peptides, I did an 8-month
long
ABX treatment according to Dr. Brownsteins's protocol for CFS/Fibro, and also
low dose Potassium Iodide and Selenium have had a tremendous impact on my
healing, as well as low dose Metformin 125mg daily to fix the nerve sheath
coverings.
I
will be writing an extensive protocol report that combines Dr. Brownstein's
Protocol with Peptides and diet. (Gluten free was major for me) as well as
Metformin, however this is after ABX therapy. And the final part I am trying to
solve is the energy issues
what’s your source for
LL-31?
PeptideSciences sell LL-37. Canlab sell it too, but are out
of stock at present.
Hip said:
@kangaSue, you might be interested
in the gut-fixing capabilities of LL-37 and BPC-157 in this post.
I
was thinking about the lab in Germany quoted on this thread. I live in uk and
was wondering if it would be worthwhile to have blood tests done over there.
Might they spot things that are
missed
on the NHS in UK
Learner1
Senior
Member
Messages
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Location
Pacific Northwest
Er, would GDF promote cancer? Seems likely if could...could
be risky for those over 40 or 50...
I've been on LL-37 for 6 weeks. Hasn't fine anything, good
or bad. I have more faith in the thymosin alpha I'm also taking for protection
against COVID.
I
highly doubt any of these are a cure. I don't like any of your scales @Hip as I've never found the
definitions apply to me well, but have improved from about 40% of normal function
to about 95% doing a long list of other things. Repairing my mitochondria,
treating infections and supporting my immune system have equally helped.
#41
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Hip
Senior
Member
Messages
16,517
Learner1 said:
Er, would GDF promote
cancer?
That was one of my thoughts when I first read
about GDF11. There has not been enough research on GDF11 to determine what
adverse effects it might have, and human trials have not yet taken place, so
it's uncharted territory.
Table 1 of this study indicates
that GDF11 suppresses tumor growth in the case of some cancers (like breast),
but promotes tumor growth in the case of others (like colorectal).
Learner1 said:
I don't like any of your scales @Hip as I've never found
the definitions apply to me well,
Senior
Member
Messages
5,962
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Location
Pacific Northwest
The cancer risk sounds dangerous.
I was diagnosed with ME/CFS by a top specialist.
The
issue with the scales is if you take the definitions for mild, moderate, it
severe, they are not the same at all. There is also too much emphasis on very
severe, severe, and moderate, then grouping mild into an extremely broad range
of functionality.
And, they have nothing to do with the status of anyone's
immune system, endocrine system, mitochondrial function of biochemistry.
It's like judging the quality of the contrail of a jet
airplane, without any judgement of how well the engine is working.
Last edited by
a moderator: May 5, 2020
#43
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Hip
Senior
Member
Messages
16,517
Learner1 said:
The issue with the
scales is if you take the definitions for mild, moderate, it severe, they are not
the same at all. There is also too much emphasis on very severe, severe, and
moderate, then grouping mild into an extremely broad range of functionality.
If you are interested in discussing the pros
and cons of the various ME/CFS scales, I'd suggest starting a thread on it. As
for the status of immune system, endocrine system and mitochondrial
functioning, we know next to nothing about these in ME/CFS, so nothing can be
reliably said.
Learner1 said:
I was diagnosed with ME/CFS by a top specialist.
Hip said:
If you are interested
in discussing the pros and cons of the various ME/CFS scales, I'd suggest
starting a thread on it.
I'm really not. They're pseudoscience.
Hip said:
As for the status of immune system, endocrine
system and mitochondrial functioning, we know next to nothing about these in
ME/CFS, so nothing can be reliably said.
Oh,
actually, there is quite a lot of research on all of these areas in ME/CFS. We
actually know quite a lot.
I
can't say what happens with functional medicine there in the UK, but where I
live, functional medicine MDs, ARNPs, NDs, DCs, and DOs use very standard
national label tests as well as done well regarded specialty labs to determine
what is wrong and to decide a treatment plan. In fact, I have provided you a
good deal if scientific information about this.
This
is an overview of functional medicine, which is systemsoriented personalized
medicine as described here, which looks into identifying and treating root
causes of chronic diseases, including ME/CFS:
https://usermanual.wiki/Document/IFMWhitepaper21stCenturyMe
dicine.279979973.
Hip said:
I am just pointing out that with all the ME/CFS patients on
this forum, when I ask them where they fit on the mild, moderate and severe
scale, they have no trouble in telling me.
These descriptions are not the same - they day the people
may work, may not work or don't work, that they are independent, dependent, and
housebound or not housebound., have reduced mobility, but can do chores, or
not..
Those with moderate ME/CFS are generally not able to work,
probably don't leave the house much, have to perform domestic chores slowly
with breaks and rests, and may need 1 or 2 hour's naps in the middle of day.
People with moderate ME/CFS have reduced
mobility and are restricted in all activities of daily living, although they
may have peaks and troughs in their level of symptoms and ability to do
activities. They have usually stopped work, school or college and need rest
periods, often sleeping in the afternoon for 1 or 2 hours. Their sleep at night
is generally poor quality and disturbed.
Moderate – you may have reduced mobility, and your symptoms
can vary. You may also have disturbed sleep patterns, and sleep in the
afternoon.
Moderate: the patient has reduced mobility and is
restricted in all activities of daily living. They have usually stopped work or
education. There is poor sleep quality and duration.
Moderate – the person is mostly housebound
70
— Independent; not able to work. Cares for self; Unable to carry on normal
activity.
60 — Disabled;
dependent. Requires occasional assistance; cares for most needs
At
my worst, I was totally brain fogged, slept 16 hours a day, had disturbed sleep
at night, cooked dinner half the time, did no other housework, did a job from
home or the doctors office on a computer 5 hours a week, and exercised in 1-2
minute increments, and needed significant help with moving and doing anything,
and spent most of the time at home and a lot of time on the floor, pavement,
grass, or whatever surface covered the ground, napping or resting wherever I
happened to collapse. I had immunodeficiciency, 7 infections, 4 autoimmune
problems, adrenal insufficiency, thyroid and other hormone dysfunction, half of
normal mito content, mito complex I operating at 31% of normal, and had
significant arsenic and mold toxicity. I don't know which category above best
fits, but I don't think it was mild.
And
today, though I'm 95% better, none of your definitions for mild fit at all,
even though I'm not cured, still have some pretty abnormal lab values, do an
extraordinary amount to support my high level of function, and can still
trigger PEM with a certain level of exertion.
So,
I find those scales pretty darn useless.
Last edited by a moderator: May 5, 2020
#45
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Hip said:
That's
incredible! So would you say that after 3 months, the combo of BPC-157 and
LL-37 has taken you from severe to mild, on the ME/CFS scale of: very severe,
severe, moderate, mild, remission?
What
actual doses of these products were you taking during the 3 month period? And
do you find that you have to keep taking them to prevent the ME/CFS symptoms
returning? Or has their beneficial effect been semi-permanent?
Would you happen to
know which pathogens your ME/CFS is associated with (eg, coxsackievirus B,
echovirus, Epstein-Barr virus, cytomegalovirus, HHV-6, etc)?
@beatsmyth I'd also like to know the
dosing and how long you took the LL-37.
I've
been eyeing it, but there are some folks on a peptide Facebook group that found
it quite strong and they had bad reactions to it. I had no gut help from
BPC-157 so still looking for
Learner1 said:
I
can't say what happens with functional medicine there in the
UK,
but where I live, functional medicine MDs, ARNPs, NDs, DCs, and DOs use very
standard national label tests as well as done well regarded specialty labs to
determine what is wrong and to decide a treatment plan. In fact, I have
provided you a good deal if scientific information about this
andyguitar said:
The problem in
the UK @Learner1 is that our NHS wont do
much in the way of testing and most patients here can't afford private
medicine. So they are a bit stuffed.
New York, NY
|
Does
anyone worry about potential infection risk from injecting these peptides,
where you cannot be 100% certain what's in the vial, let alone that it is
sterile? Or are subcutaneous injections "reasonably" safe, at least
compared to IV-administered injections/infusions? Does mixing BPC11 or any
other peptide with bacteriostatic water prior to injection make the combined
solution sterile?
One
reason I ask is that Tailor Made Compounding, a pharmacy with an imprimatur
of safety because it requires a prescription from a physician to dispense
peptides, was the target of a
warning
letter on April 1st from the FDA. The FDA letter says that
"investigators noted serious deficiencies in your practices for
producing sterile drug products, which put patients at risk." (letter
attached)
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Attachments
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•
|
U.S. Food and Drug Administration.pdf
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|
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|
minimus said:
Does anyone worry about
potential infection risk from injecting these peptides, where you cannot be
100% certain what's in the vial, let alone that it is sterile?
There are dozens of companies online which
sell these peptides, proteins and hormones, and it is typically body-builders
which use them most. I've not come across any stories of the products not being
sterile. However, these products are always sold as not for human consumption,
as that's the legal loophole which allows them to be sold.
minimus said:
Does mixing BPC11 or any other peptide with bacteriostatic
water prior to injection make the combined solution sterile?
The
peptides and bacteriostatic water solution are no longer fully sterile once you
insert the hypodermic needle through the rubber stopper of the bottle, as this
will introduce tiny amounts of bacteria present in the air.
However,
because bacteriostatic water contains an antibacterial substance (benzyl
alcohol) which reduces the growth of bacteria, a bottle of bacteriostatic water
with some peptide or protein dissolved in it will be safe to inject for 28
days, according to the bacteriostatic water manufacturer, if it is kept in the
fridge.
New Patient? ➤ ME/CFS — A
Roadmap for Testing and
Treatment
#50
Like Quote Reply
minimus said:
Does
anyone worry about potential infection risk from injecting these peptides,
where you cannot be 100% certain what's in the vial, let alone that it is
sterile? Or are subcutaneous injections "reasonably" safe, at least
compared to IV-administered injections/infusions? Does mixing BPC11 or any
other peptide with bacteriostatic water prior to injection make the combined
solution sterile?
One reason I ask is
that Tailor Made Compounding, a pharmacy with an imprimatur of safety because
it requires a prescription from a physician to dispense peptides, was the
target of a warning letter on April 1st from the FDA. The FDA letter says that "investigators
noted serious deficiencies in your practices for producing sterile drug
products, which put patients at risk." (letter attached)
I
actually had an order held up from Tailor Made because the
FDA
dropped by a couple days after my order went in. From what I understand, there
was some confusion as a veterinary
compounder
had been at that address, and they were the actual target of the FDAs concern.
I was assured that the FDA came and went without a problem, and my order was
shipped a couple days later as promised. As I've heard numerous horror stories
of the FDA raiding pharmacies and doctor's offices and confiscating everything,
it seems like there wasn't a big problem in this case. I have another shipment
in the mail right now that went through promptly.
From
what I've seen, there are risks of contamination from FDA approved drugs made
in factories all over the world, from supplement manufacturers and compounding
pharmacies alike.
All
have had specific episodes where people broke the laws. That's why, wherever
possible, I try to buy from sources with high standards, ideally where my
doctor or someone else I know has visited and verified that the standards
advertised or designated by law are bring adhered to, 100% of the time. And
it's why I'm leery of buying from CutRate drugs in a country 12 time zones
away, or El Cheapo bulk supplements, when I can't trust that the ranitidine my
doctor prescribed isn't contsminated either.
With
an injectable, the stakes are even higher. There is a risk for serious
infection, sepsis, and even death. I would hope that anyone in the industry of
compounding injectable substances would be exceedingly cautious about how
they're producing them. But there are exceptions. I think it's good to alert
people if there are issues but also not fan the flames of falsehoods. I have
seen products that I know to be good ones, like intravenous curcumin and
dichloroacetate, disappear from the market, while flawed and contaminated FDA
drugs kill people everyday. Compounding is a difficult business and many of us
depend on compounds and if products become unavailable, patience like us will
lack solutions.
If
anyone has more information on the scenario above I'd be be
I
am starting to see a pattern in the effects of my GDF11 injections:
I've
currently gone down to injecting just 20 picograms of GDF11, but this small
dose seems to produce almost as much benefit as the higher 200 and 400 picogram
doses I was using earlier.
What
I find is that within hours of an injection, the benefits kick in. The positive
benefits I notice are much better mood and optimism, more drive and motivation,
increased mental focus, and increased energy.
The
negatives are the agitation / anxiety / overstimulation / anger / irritability
side effects of GDF11, which Steve Perry reports are
not uncommon in people who take GDF11. But this side effect is much reduced by
using the lower 20 picogram dose. I also found this side effect can be
countered to an extent with supplements
which reduce
testosterone and dihydrotestosterone, such as saw palmetto, zinc and peppermint
oil (menthol).
Oddly, in spite
of the better mood and increased drive, libido goes down dramatically on GDF11.
In terms of the
magnitude of these effects, I am certainly nowhere near the full recovery that
Hamsterman achieved with GDF11, but I would say that on the 3-level ME/CFS
scale of mild, moderate and severe,
GDF11 probably moves me up by perhaps an eighth of a level on that scale, or
maybe a bit more. So nothing spectacular for me so far, but the benefits are
definitely noticeable.
What I don't
like about GDF11 is the agitation / overstimulation / anger side effect. It's
hard to relax with this state of mind. Although I have noticed that the mental
agitation / overstimulation tends to make me more productive, even though I
don't like the feeling. But I suspect most other ME/CFS patients will not get
this side effect.
The other thing
I've noticed with GDF11 is a rebound effect after a few days, as the injection
wears off.
When I inject 20
picograms, it starts working on the same day, and then for the following 2 or 3
days I feel the full effects of the GDF11. But then as it starts wearing off at
around the 4th day after the injection, I get a couple of days where I actually
feel more tired than normal, and a bit depressed. But then after these 2
rebound days, I return to normal baseline.
Just
want to mention real quick that I'm on my 4th injection and up to 220 picograms
every other day. I'm keeping track of everything and will have a more detailed
report in another week, but I will say that GDF11 is doing things in my body
that almost make me feel normal again. The day after the first injection was
amazing. The effects after each injection after that have been less. I may try
to up the dose. Also, don't notice any change in mood as others have noticed.
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Seriously
people, there is about ~1mg of GDF11 in your body at any single point in time,
GDF11 has a half life of 12 hours. Few hundreds picograms per week or even
every day will not even nudge the blood concentration. What most of you are
probably experiencing is either a confounding factor, you are obtaining
something else other than GDF11, or simply the euphoria of first time injecting
yourself, which is often anecdotally reported, myself having experiencing it
too.
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lateM98 said:
Seriously
people, there is about ~1mg of GDF11 in your body at any single point in time
|
Do you
have a reference for that?
I
experienced very clearcut and repeatable adverse effects from picogram dose
injection, so we cannot call this a placebo effect. I had no idea beforehand
that those specific adverse effects would appear, so it cannot be nocebo
either.
And I
have injected myself with lots of different substances over the years, so
injection is not a novelty for me.
Note that some studies on
GDF11 levels in the blood are flawed because early assays were non-specific
and would detect both
GDF11
and GDF8 (myostatin). Ref: here
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lateM98 said:
Seriously
people, there is about ~1mg of GDF11 in your body at any single point in time,
GDF11 has a half life of 12 hours. Few hundreds picograms per week or even
every day will not even nudge the blood concentration. What most of you are
probably experiencing is either a confounding factor, you are obtaining
something else other than GDF11, or simply the euphoria of first time injecting
yourself, which is often anecdotally reported, myself having experiencing it
too.
|
I'm always very
skeptical of new treatments and I almost always believe that they wont work.
This was true with the Staph Vaccine I injected for months, and it was also
true with the Cortene trial I was part of. I basically felt no effects of
those two things. Even directly after injection. I can honest to god say that
I've tried almost 100 different treatments and that this one actually feels
like it is doing something. I will say however that after the first
injection, each time I'm injecting, the effects of it seem to wear off
faster. I'm hoping that I can see the same positive effects as the person
that went into remission after feeling no effects for 2 months.
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Hip said:
Do you have a reference
for that?
I
have to admit that I made a mistake, also you are right, there seem to be a lot
of inconsistency in reported GDF11 concentrations.
Here is a study published in nature using
a fancy measurement assay to avoid confounding with GFD8. Average GDF11
concentration in Chinese menopausal women is estimated at 5.92 ng/ml which
equals 5.92 mcg/l, assuming a volume of distribution of 10l which is about that
for most of these large polypeptides and quite conservative too, so you get
about 59.2 mcg. The study suggest that GDF11 concentration raises with age. So
let's assume that the average adult 20-40 years has only 1/50 of that, which is
what some other studies seem to suggest, that's
about 1 mcg of total circulating GDF11. You still won't nudge the blood
concentration injecting few hundreds picograms even if you did it everyday,
because 100pg = 0.0001mcg. Add to that
the fact that subcutaneous absorption of these polypeptides is not optimial. Picogram is just too low of a dose. Few hundreds nanograms is the lowest meaningful dose you
can be injecting.
Again, the burden of the proof that what you are injecting
is actual GDF11 falls on you. Where are you ordering the GDF11 from? Is it from
a cited lab or manufacturer? Or some random website claiming to sell you GDF11?
Why don't you take your GDF11 to a lab and test it? It may turn out that it's
some random nootropic peptide with GDF11 label slapped on it.
CaptainA said:
I'm always very skeptical of new treatments and I almost
always believe that they wont work. This was true with the Staph Vaccine I
injected for months, and it was also true with the
Cortene trial I was part of. I basically felt no effects of
those two things. Even directly after injection. I can honest to god say that
I've tried almost 100 different treatments and that this one actually feels
like it is doing something. I will say however that after the first injection,
each time I'm injecting, the effects of it seem to wear off faster. I'm hoping
that I can see the same positive effects as the person that went into remission
after feeling no effects for 2 months.
132
Hip said:
That's
incredible! So would you say that after 3 months, the combo of BPC-157 and
LL-37 has taken you from severe to mild, on the ME/CFS scale of: very severe,
severe, moderate, mild, remission?
What
actual doses of these products were you taking during the 3 month period? And
do you find that you have to keep taking them to prevent the ME/CFS symptoms
returning? Or has their beneficial effect been semi-permanent?
Would you happen to
know which pathogens your ME/CFS is associated with (eg, coxsackievirus B,
echovirus, Epstein-Barr virus, cytomegalovirus, HHV-6, etc)?
Yes
after 3 months, I went from severe to Mild, on BPC-157 and LL-37, but I still
have to be careful with over exertion, and still have bad days (now its like 2
bad days a week, verses all bad days a week)
with
the LL-37, I was taking daily a very minimal dosage into belly fat. Dont have
my notes on me, but basically I halved the recommended dose. As far as
benficial effects, Im off the LL-37 for several months now and my stomach is
still all good, honestly never thought I would be able to fix my stomach
issues, but this has been a Godsend. BPC-157 has also left some permanent
results, less joint and less nerve pain, but also in general I found as long as
I stay on the BPC, its much better than to be off of it overall
As
far pathogen associations, Mycoplasma, HHV-6, and EBV.
Massive
improvement also once I went on low dose Potassium
Iodide
daily with selenium, and did an 8 month hard core multiple ABX therapy
|
lateM98 said: that's
about 1 mcg of total circulating GDF11.
You
still won't nudge the blood concentration injecting few hundreds picograms
even if you did it everyday
|
I
see your point, and I would agree that on first analysis, it does not make much
sense that dose in the order of 100 to 500 picograms daily would substantially
alter circulating GDF11 levels.
Yet
I am pretty confident that the picogram doses I was injecting had a
physiological effect, because of the strong mental agitation
/
anxiety / overstimulation / anger / irritability side effect I mentioned
earlier.
The only possible explanation I can think of
is something along the lines of plasma protein binding. As you may know, many
substances in the blood bind to plasma proteins, and when they do so, they
usually become inert and inactive. It is only the portion of the substance
freely dissolved in the plasma which has an active physiological effect, but
the protein bound portion is inactive (this is called the free drug principle).
This applies both to drugs and supplements as well as endogenous substances
like hormones.
When you measure the concentration of a substance in the
blood, it usually includes the sum total of the free and protein-bound
concentrations of the substance.
Now, I am not sure if GDF11 does bind to plasma proteins,
but even if it does not, it says here that:
Signaling by GDF11 ... is regulated by extracellular
binding proteins that are typically thought to function as antagonists.
Thus if I have understood correctly, GDF11 binds to
proteins on cells and becomes inactive. So much of the GDF11 in circulation may
be inactive.
So, I am thinking that when you inject picogram doses of
GDF11, perhaps initially the injected GDF11 does not immediately bind to
proteins, and therefore remains active. This could perhaps explain why such
tiny doses have a strong effect. That's just a guess though.
lateM98 said:
Again, the burden of the proof that what you are injecting
is actual GDF11 falls on you. Where are you ordering the GDF11 from? Is it from
a cited lab or manufacturer? Or some random website claiming to sell you GDF11?
Why don't you take your GDF11 to a lab and test it? It may turn out that it's
some random nootropic peptide with GDF11 label slapped on it.
I have no desire to organize lab tests which demonstrate
that my
GDF11 is kosher. I bought my GDF11 from the
same source as Hamsterman (buckylabs.com), so I am using the same substance
that he found greatly helped his ME/CFS. My interest is in trying to replicate
his results. Which so far I have failed to do, as my improvement in ME/CFS from
GDF11 was only relatively small, about an upward movement of around one eighth
of a level on the
3-level ME/CFS scale of mild, moderate
and severe
Watch
L lateM98
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Hip said:
...
I
totally believe you when you say that you experienced strong side effects. All
what I am saying is it's possible that you are obtaining something else other
than GDF11 from buckylabs or there are some impurities causing these side
effects. GDF11 is not protein bound, same for most of polypeptides. The assay
in the studies I linked measures serum concentration of GDF11 after
centrifugation, so we are talking non-cell bound circulating GDF11. Also
Hamsterman himself said that he started using NMN around the time of starting
to use GDF11.
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beatsmyth said:
with the LL-37, I was
taking daily a very minimal dosage into belly fat. Dont have my notes on me,
but basically I halved the recommended dose.
I'd
be interested in the daily LL-37 dose you used, because I think I am going to
try LL-37 next. I'd also like to know where you got your dosing info from,
because I could not find any guidance for LL-37 dosing online.
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lateM98 said:
All what I am saying is
it's possible that you are obtaining something else other than GDF11 from
buckylabs or there are some impurities causing these side effects.
That's
possible, but the same issues that you raised still applies, because whatever
it was that I received from Buckylabs in the tiny 10 mcg speck of powder that
was smaller than a sugar grain, I serially diluted that down (by about 5 orders
of magnitude) so that I was giving myself picogram doses. Which is an
astonishingly small amount, yet it appears to have an effect.
When
I first saw this tiny speck of powder, my first thought was that this is never
going to work, especially after diluting down so
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CaptainA said:
I
will say however that after the first injection, each time I'm injecting, the
effects of it seem to wear off faster. I'm hoping that I can see the same
positive effects as the person that went into remission after feeling no
effects for 2 months.
|
The
feeling I have is that GDF11 may be providing some of its benefits via a
stimulant action on the brain, like say Ritalin which works on
norepinephrine. I think this could explain the overstimulation / agitation I
feel with GDF11.
So like any
stimulant, perhaps there could be a tolerance buildup. Although myself I have
not noticed any loss of effect over time.
Hamsterman
told me yesterday that he also is now not getting the same benefits as he
originally obtained with GDF11. He had around 3 or 4 weeks of feeling totally
in remission (apart from some odd days of fever and malaise when he dosed the
GDF11 too high). Before starting GDF11, he had moderate ME/CFS, but the GDF11
put him into remission.
He thinks he is now
somewhere between mild and moderate ME/CFS, but perhaps closer to mild.
However, he is also on a slightly lower dose, currently taking 60 picograms
every 4 days. Whereas during his remission period, he was taking 100
picograms every 3 days.
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@lateM98 I don't really no
anything about gdf11 but if, as you say, there is a 50x difference between
menopause and youth then the levels seem quite variable. It's possible this
disease uses up fast or produces significantly less gdf11. In this case small
amounts might make a difference.
+/+ = COMT V158M, COMT H62H, MAO-A R297R, BHMT-08
+/- = MTHFR C677T, MTHFR 03 P39P, MTHFR A1298C, VDR
Bsm, VDR Taq, MTRR A66G, BHMT-02, AHCY-01, AHCY-19,
CBS C699T, CBS A360A
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Marelica said:
Dear Hip, thanks for
posting the news about Hamsterman. This is quite a experiment
Can you ask Hamsterman
why does he change the dose of GDF11 if there was a sign that he was diong better?
I think he is still
experimenting with dose level. He's tried many different dose levels already.
For Hamsterman, when the dose was higher he would get these bouts of fever
and malaise (flu-like feelings), which disappeared once he lowered the dose a
bit.
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lateM98 said:
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So
just a quick update. I'm up to 330 picos/day now. I am for sure feeling the
effects after injection but each time it is less and less. It is hard to
explain the sensation you get. It is literally like a fog is being removed from
you body. I will still have low energy and still have some issues with brain
fog, but for the hours after injection it is like the extreme shittyness that
my body feels at all times is suddenly gone. I wish it lasted more than a
couple of hours. My hope is that I will start feeling an accumulative effect
soon. I'm also hoping that I get the flu like symptoms like others have
reported which could be a sign of fighting off an underlying
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CaptainA said:
So
just a quick update. I'm up to 330 picos/day now. I am for sure feeling the
effects after injection but each time it is less and less. It is hard to
explain the sensation you get. It is literally like a fog is being removed from
you body. I will still have low energy and still have some issues with brain
fog, but for the hours after injection it is like the extreme shittyness that
my body feels at all times is
|
suddenly gone. I wish it
lasted more than a couple of hours. My hope is that I will start feeling an
accumulative effect soon. I'm also hoping that I get the flu like symptoms
like others have reported which could be a sign of fighting off an underlying
infection.
Going to keep it at 330
picograms a day for another week and move to 440 after that.
Thank you for update! I
wish you good result with your experiment.
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Marelica said:
Thank
you for update! I wish you good result with your experiment.
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CaptainA said:
Absolutely. I'm keeping
track of any effects one way or another. I really think that we are going to
need more ME/CFS'rs to try this though to get an accurate sample.
I'll be starting in
about 2 weeks, so I will give an update as well
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Two
things to report:
(1)
Two weeks ago I decided to try a GDF11 dose as
low as 2 picograms, in the hope that this lower dose would not trigger the side
effects of overstimulation / agitation / aggression.
But
I found even 2 pg is enough to cause these unpleasant side effects in their
full force. So GDF11 appears to be incredibly potent, even in the most minute
doses. I have just ordered some more bacteriostatic water, and am now planning
to try even smaller doses, like 0.1 pg or even 0.01 pg, to see if I can still
get the benefits, but without the side effects.
(2)
I've stopped taking GDF11 for two weeks now,
just to have a break, and have gone back to my usual ME/CFS baseline health
level. I've generally gone back to feeling my usual crappy self, and I only now
realize how effective GDF11 was in removing the ever-present "crappy
feeling" from ME/CFS.
So
even though GDF11 did not greatly improve my ME/CFS in
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Hip said:
(1)
Two weeks ago I decided to try a GDF11 dose as low as 2 picograms, in the hope
that this lower dose would not trigger the side effects of overstimulation /
agitation / aggression.
But I found even 2 pg is enough to cause these
unpleasant side effects in their full force. So GDF11 appears to be incredibly
potent, even in the most minute doses. I have just ordered some more
bacteriostatic water, and am now planning to try even smaller doses, like 0.1
pg or even 0.01 pg, to see if I can still get the benefits, but without the
side effects.
This
is interesting. I'm up to 330 Picograms a day now and it is barely moving the
scale anymore. I do still feel something when injecting for about 2 hours but
nothing like before. My hope that I get something from the cumulative effects.
I planned on using the same bottle for 3 months but now I'm thinking of ordering
a new bottle of the bacteriostatic water and doing one more mixture from the
main bottle. I'm planning on doing a 6 month trial of GDF11 at 330 picograms a
day. I might try to add the LL-37 in next month.
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CaptainA said:
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This is interesting. I'm up
to 330 Picograms a day now and it is barely moving the scale anymore. I do
still feel something when injecting for about 2 hours but nothing like
before.
Have you considered
giving it a break for say 5 days, and then restarting, to see if you get the
same benefits you had when you first started?
A
break is also useful to check whether you may have slowly improved, but just
got used to the improvement and so no longer noticed it.
It was not until I gave
myself a 2-week break from GDF11 did I fully become aware the benefits it was
providing while I was on it, such as its ability to reduce the "crappy
feeling" of ME/CFS.
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CaptainA said:
I'm planning on doing a
6 month trial of GDF11 at 330 picograms a day.
With
long-term use of relatively high doses of GDF11, it might be worth looking at
the heart rate variability (HRV) monitor that Steve Perry recommends in this
document: Biomarker Guidelines and
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Hip said:
I am
not sure if a HRV monitor is actually effective in detecting arrhythmia; I
could not find much literature on HRV monitors and arrhythmias.
But certainly arrhythmia
seems to be the biggest potential risk of GDF11 that Perry mentions. Most
sudden cardiac deaths are caused by arrhythmias.
Thats a good point. I'm
going to take some days off between injections now anyways to see if I can
get the same effect as I did before.
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So
I recently moved and I believe that the GDF-11 got a little warm during the
move because I took 3 days off and tried an
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CaptainA said:
So I recently moved and
I believe that the GDF-11 got a little warm during the move because I took 3
days off and tried an injection with basically no effect at all. Now I'm
wondering if I should get another batch.
I would not have
thought a bit of heat would affect this protein; after all, it's designed to
operate in a body whose temperature is 37°C
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mitoMAN said:
Any update @CaptainA @beatsmyth
In about 2 weeks I will be coming up on 2 months doing 330
picograms every other day. When I inject I do get some benefit but its minimal
for sure now. Hoping that I get more of the long term benefits.
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CaptainA said:
In about 2 weeks I will be coming up on 2 months doing 330
picograms every other day. When I inject I do get some benefit but its minimal
for sure now. Hoping that I get more of the long term benefits.
so far so good, definitely a boost in energy, only take it
every other day as the benefit lasts the next day as well. Not good if i take
more than 300-330 picograms, then am too wired. but overall plenty of benefits
and will be sticking with it long term. Havent it the 1 month mark yet
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Did anyone find a retailer that ships GDF-11 to EUROPE from
inside the EU or UK?
Sadly German customs are very very aggressive and strict,
and I heard of people having legal problems with importing peptides from the US
already.
I
am stuck in Germany during Corona and might give
it a try once I move back to Austria. Customs there are less strict.
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II
will start TB-500 and LL-37 shortly in addition
to my ongoing BPC-157 and keep you guys updated.
Still no GDF-11 found in Europe but as @beatsmyth had some good success
with LL-37 - I will keep you guys updated on my journey
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Please do update us.Immunoregulating peptides are a very
interesting experiment in our situation.
#87
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Hip said:
Interesting! Have you tried it a second time yet? How does
it go?
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I am waiting for my TH1/TH2 balance test at IMD-Berlin and
will probably start my Thymosin Alpha-1 at the end of the month. I want to do
prior and after lab tests to see if it changed annything on immune markers.
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Lieselotte said:
@beatsmyth I'd also like to know the
dosing and how long you took the LL-37.
I've been eyeing it, but there are some folks on a peptide
Facebook group that found it quite strong and they had bad reactions to it. I
had no gut help from BPC-157 so still looking for anything that might help with
that.
So now you've got me back to looking into LL-37!
An update on LL-37, mentioned earlier in this thread, which
I just finished.
I did 100mcg/day for 6 weeks. This is the standard protocol
according to some folks on a Facebook peptide group. A cycle is 6 weeks, and
you can do another cycle after a 2 week break. I only did one cycle. I got the
peptide from CanLabs.
I did not feel any affects from this peptide, good or bad.
I was hoping it would help with my gut, or with a possible candida problem
based on borderline OATS test results. But, it did nothing. On to the next one!
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@Lieselotte did you try taking
antibiotics for a full gut rebuild? Thats what I am doing right now, and from
what I understand LL37 has similar functions to gut antibiotics.
So you would want to start with a good diet and taking
pre/probiotics after your LL-37 intake?
I'm keeping the LL-37 aside as of now and waiting to see
how my antibiotics and gut rebuilding trial goes along.
#91
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@mitoMAN I did not do an antibiotic
napalm. According to stool and other tests, my bacteria levels/types aren't
that bad. However there was a possible candida issue (which antibiotics
wouldn't help). I was doing some herbal anti-candida supplements at the time of
doing the peptide. But haven't noticed a huge difference. But again it was only
a possible candida problem. I guess I could try Rx antifungals with the LL-37
in the future if I wanted to.
#92
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[QUOTE = "Lieselotte, post: 2284772, member:
37038"] [USER = 40195] @mitoMAN [/ USER] I did not do
napalm with antibiotics. According to stool and other tests, my bacteria levels
/ types are not so bad. However, there was a possible Candida problem (which
antibiotics will not help). I made some herbal anti-candida supplements while
using the peptide. But I did not notice a huge difference. But then again, it
was only a possible problem with the candida. I think that I could try the
antifungal drugs Rx with LL-37 in the future if I wanted to. [/ QUOTE]
I did not find the benefits of LL-37 (Tailor) for my fungal
infection.
Use voriconazole again. But maybe check back later with a
second bottle. What do you think safer if not Tailor (they are discontinued) -
Peptide Science or Canlab?
#93
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@zaika11 I think CanLabs and
Peptide Sciences are both good. I got my BPC and Epitalon from PS, and LL-37
and TA-1 from CanLab.
Interesting to see you didn't have any effects with LL-37
either. Yes, maybe I'll try again at a later point.
#94
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Lieselotte said:
@zaika11 I think CanLabs and
Peptide Sciences are both good. I got my BPC and Epitalon from PS, and LL-37
and TA-1 from CanLab.
Interesting to see you didn't have any effects with LL-37
either. Yes, maybe I'll try again at a later point.
Thank you!
I can’t say that
LL-37 was not effective for me, I can’t know for sure in this point. I used it
when I had a serious infection, it’s hard to say if there was an
antibacterial/antiviral effect, such bad situation was in general. But I didn’t
notice the antifungal effect (but I will double-check again).
It seems in my
case, LL-37 turns into the autoimmune component
- I got real
weakness, and strong pain in my knee joints (I didn’t have it never), it was
even painful to walk. Only TB-500 recovered it(I such in love this this
staff!). But as I said, I still would like to check it one more time. I only
afraid of possible bacterial resistance for LL-37 when I will stop to use it- I
saw this article in Pubmed. This is that really scary me, not autoimmune even
(because it
seems its just for period when you use it)
#95
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Also I noticed TB-500 worth to try for MSAC (not TA)
#96
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@Hip
I'm a newbie here, well an off and off reader, but newer
poster. I actually popped over here today looking at "stem cell" and
"peptide" threads.
This morning I was spending some time on MTHFR and
listening to Lynch. What I find fascinating/frustrating is the MTHFR situation
(under/over methylating, getting it 'just right') along with the interplay of
all B vitamins and their effect and function of one another.
As a side note, your adverse side effects sound somewhat
familiar with those who get too much methylation or maybe more properly too
much methylfolate - for which one of Lynch's cures is niacin.
The main point I am trying to make is that I'm wondering if
your adverse affects may be due to a possible deficiency (or abundance) in
another nutrient? Can the GDF11, or maybe more properly asked, is the GDF11
dependent on something else for it to work properly? This could be vitamin,
mineral or another peptide. Maybe the GDF11 is either using something up that
you have in short supply, or you simply don't have enough of a supporting
molecule? Or possibly the opposite, the GDF11 is producing too much of
something which seems to be your hypothesis since you are dramatically
decreasing your dose - but the diminishing return is not optimal.
I'm thinking of situations in which we need correct B9
before correcting B12. IIRC, or those who are mega dosing B1 they should take
it apart from B12(?) because they compete for receptors. Or if you get too much
methylfolate and have adverse effects - why is Lynch's solution to take niacin?
Is the adverse effect too much folate or that the folate uses niacin and if in
niacine is in short supply you'll have adverse affects - not from the
methylfolate but from deficient niacin? - thus the niacin alleviates symptoms.
Just trying to think outside the box 
Rather than GDF11 being the problem, maybe you
have a deficiency. ??
#97
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beatsmyth said:
Yes after 3 months, I went from severe to Mild, on BPC-157
and LL-37, but I still have to be careful with over exertion, and still have
bad days (now its like 2 bad days a week, verses all bad days a week)
with the LL-37, I was taking daily a very minimal dosage
into belly fat. Dont have my notes on me, but basically I halved the
recommended dose. As far as benficial effects, Im off the LL-37 for several
months now and my stomach is still all good, honestly never thought I would be
able to fix my stomach issues, but this has been a Godsend. BPC-157 has also
left some permanent results, less joint and less nerve pain, but also in
general I found as long as I stay on the BPC, its much better than to be off of
it overall
As far pathogen associations, Mycoplasma, HHV-6, and EBV.
Massive improvement also once I went on low dose Potassium
Iodide daily with selenium, and did an 8 month hard core
multiple
ABX therapy
@Yuno I get my Peptides from
Canlabs, he works at the University and makes his Peptides there in the lab
Did you ever try an oral form BPC-157? I just ordered it.
Very interesting to know a difference if someone tried both forms
Last edited:
Jul 20, 2020
#98
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interesting
Recently,
a work by Anon-Hidalgo et al. (73) reported a convincing study associating the circulating
levels of GDF11 with thyroid-stimulating hormone (TSH) in humans. The study
showed subjects with high or normal levels of TSH present high level contents
of GDF11, compared with patients with low levels of TSH. This finding could be
due to the fact that other members of the family, such as GDF8 and GDF15, are
regulators of the energy homeostasis (74, 75). Anon-Hidalgo team states that it could be related to a
regulation of TSH by GDF11, or GDF11 could be positively regulated by TSH or
any other thyroid hormones (73
Did I read that right? LL-37 can cause bacteria to become
resistant to immune/anti biotics and take over?
Diagnosed with ME in 2016.
Positive blood work from Armin for Coxsackie A, EBV latent
replication Sept 2018. Positive for ebv EBNA IGG+ // VCA IGG+// VCA IGM- 2021
(reactivated). Acute mono June 2020. Currently on the Herpes Viridae protocol (Up
from 60% Hummingbird Scale to 70%-80%) #101
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mitoMAN said:
Any news from our GDF-11 guys?
@beatsmyth @CaptainA
Been doing great on GDF-11. If I ever feel low on energy, I
take a small tiny does of this and it gives me 3 days worth of rebound energy.
Its definitely a keeper and part of my regimen now and I'm up to 4 Miles
running 2-3 times a week specifically on the days after injecting this
#102
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What is your full regime like each day/week now @beatsmyth
I'm going to start alpha-1 to begin with and then probably
will add bpc in. But would be interested to know what your protocol looks like
with dosages at this point.
Diagnosed with ME in 2016.
Positive blood work from Armin for Coxsackie A, EBV latent
replication Sept 2018. Positive for ebv EBNA IGG+ // VCA IGG+// VCA IGM- 2021
(reactivated). Acute mono June 2020. Currently on the Herpes Viridae protocol (Up
from 60% Hummingbird Scale to 70%-80%) #103
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zaika11 said:
Also I noticed TB-500 worth to try for MSAC (not TA)
After months of tests and research I believe my main issue
is MCAS (not sure of the cause - other than genetic collagen issues and genetic
B12/methymalonic acid issues). I've got to get these mast cells stabilized.
Have you tried TB-500 for MCAS? So far, nothing I've done
helps much.
#104
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zaika11 said:
It seems in my case, LL-37... - I got real weakness, and
strong pain in my knee joints (I didn’t have it never), it was even painful to
walk.
The same thing happened to me when I started abx
(antibiotics) for possibly Lyme co-infections. Are you sure it wasn't targeting
some type of bacteria that had settled into your joints?
I think Lyme especially likes to settle into the leg
joints. The bacteria like to feed on our soft tissues. I have never had that
severity of leg joint pain before that I could remember. Continuing on the abx
resolved it though after about a week.
Maybe the peptides were working in the same way and helping
to clear up some infection in you?
<< The tree fell but continues to reach to the sky
and survive. That's us.
#105
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Given the existing research I don't see a basis for it as a
ME treatment
Here's an article on the legal implications of self experimentation.
Mainly the FDA can take your stuff.
Last edited by
a moderator: Mar 17, 2021
#106
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T
Momentum said:
After months of tests and research I believe my main issue
is MCAS (not sure of the cause - other than genetic collagen issues and genetic
B12/methymalonic acid issues). I've got to get these mast cells stabilized.
Have you tried TB-500 for MCAS? So far, nothing I've done
helps much.
TB-500 will worsen MCAS a lot. It's a mast cell
degranulator
#107
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mitoMAN said:
T
TB-500 will worsen MCAS a lot. It's a mast cell
degranulator
Idk why, but in fact, it helps me with my mcas a lot. TB
balances a immune response very much. When I have a reaction TB eliminate it
Last edited:
Mar 12, 2021
#108
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zaika11 said:
Also I noticed TB-500 worth to try for MSAC (not TA)
After months of tests and research I believe my main issue
is MCAS (not sure of the cause - other than genetic collagen issues and genetic
B12/methymalonic acid issues). I've got to get these mast cells stabilized.
Have you tried TB-500 for MCAS? So far, nothing I've done
helps much.
#109
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Tb-500 is bad for mcas
#110
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yep TB-500 degranulates mast cells. Ketotifen helped
me so far.
#111
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Momentum said:
After months of tests and research I believe my main issue
is
MCAS
Hi @Momentum -- I was wondering if you
by any chance have tinnitus, or have very sensitive hearing (hyperacusis). I
recently read from a tinnitus forum member that he tracked his tinnitus down to
having MCAS. After doing various things to address it, he's experienced his
tinnitus improving significantly (I think he may have said 90%). -- Best...
"When
you sing HU, you may notice a feeling of peace, warmth,
and comfort as it fills your world with love" - [3-min. video]
#112
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Anyone handle buying GDF11 in Europe countries?
#113
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GDF11 dosing is tricky and unusual. If you watch one of
many steve perry youtube videos he will tell you how to do it. You take the
dose daily and then all of a sudden at about 2-3 months you will hit a wall and
you have to stop taking it.
He calls it downregulation but your body essentially gets
repleted and when that happens, taking more will give you opposite results and
you will start to have negative effects. Which is why he suggests you monitor
your biomarkers daily so you will be able to detect it. Once you hit the wall,
you back off the dose and take tiny tiny doses like 20pg a month or so. Your
biomarkers will guide you on what the maintenance dose should be.
So for everyone who say "it stopped working"
after a while etc. This explains why this is happening. I am kind of shocked no
one here that is taking gdf11 hasnt mentioned it or watched a steve perry video
on it.
677T
#114
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vortex said:
GDF11 dosing is tricky and unusual. If you watch one of
many steve perry youtube videos he will tell you how to do it. You take the
dose daily and then all of a sudden at about 2-3 months you will hit a wall and
you have to stop taking it.
He calls it downregulation but your body essentially gets
repleted and when that happens, taking more will give you opposite results and
you will start to have negative effects. Which is why he suggests you monitor
your biomarkers daily so you will be able to detect it. Once you hit the wall,
you back off the dose and take tiny tiny doses like 20pg a month or so. Your
biomarkers will guide you on what the maintenance dose should be.
So for everyone who say "it stopped working"
after a while etc.
This explains why this is happening. I am kind of shocked
no one here that is taking gdf11 hasnt mentioned it or watched a steve perry
video on it.
This guy? I'm confused...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Perry
#115
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Learner1 said:
This guy? I'm confused...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Perry
LOL, I was wondering the same thing
I didn't know he was on the CFS "Journey"....
haha
#116
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This sentence caught my attention
"fever
may be the immune system kicking into gear and fighting off the underlying
infections."
I never had a real fever in my life, (normal temp. 36,5)
not even when I had sepsis, (very rare growth: bacteremia: Staph epidermidis
and Peptostreptococcus, Peptostreptococcus, one colony Staph caprae,
Corynebacterium species,”) after a botched L4-L5 surgery.
My normal blood pressure is always about 110 but with the
sepsis, it stayed for weeks at 195 - but the fever never went higher than 38.5
C.
Something else and very strange has happened. After being
for 6 weeks on Amoxicillin (IV) I had no bodily odor for one year.
In the last few weeks something
remarkable has happened I never experienced before; at the night, I have a
low-grade fever with sweats. The next day I have a tiny bit more energy. Maybe,
"fever may be the immune system kicking into gear and fighting off the
underlying infections."
Here are my thoughts:
Maybe
Fluoroquinolone and Amoxicillin killed my immune system?
There are some studies about it; if you can relate or
like to read: Fluoroquinolone Trouble
Untangled (oxidative damage) https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/fluoroquinolonetrouble-untangled When antibiotics turn
toxic: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-03267-5
