Amisulpride — A Multipurpose Drug
for ME/CFS
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I have been taking
very low doses (12.5 mg daily) of the drug amisulpride for
around a year now, and I have found this drug quite helpful for a number of
mental and cognitive symptoms that arise in ME/CFS and its comorbid conditions
like depression and anxiety disorder.
At very low doses, amisulpride is know
to act as an:
Antidepressant treatment
Anti-anhedonia treatment
Anti-anxiety treatment
I have personally found that very low-dose amisulpride
also:
Reduces ME/CFS noise sensitivity symptoms
Greatly reduces ME/CFS irritability symptoms
Improves sociability
Treats anxiety psychosis symptoms (anxiety psychosis from
anxiety disorder)
Improves attention deficit-hyperactivity disorder (ADHD)
I have all the above conditions, and so I found amisulpride
particularly useful.
This small scale study of the
benefits of amisulpride for ME/CFS found that 25 mg
of this drug taken twice daily reduced fatigue and somatic
complaints, such as pain.
Amisulpride is not licensed in the US, but it can be
obtained from the usual overseas suppliers. I believe the smallest available
size of amisulpride tablets is 50 mg, so you will
need to cut these 50 mg tablets in half or in quarters if you want to take the
very lowest doses of 25 mg and 12.5 mg.
I find 12.5 mg is a good dose for me; if I go up to 25 mg, it seems to make me
a bit torpid and unmotivated.
UPDATE: Dopamine system stabilization drugs (third-generation
antipsychotics) such as amisulpride (Solian) aripiprazole (Abilify) have been shown to benefit
ME/CFS when taken in combination with an antidepressant — see this post. Amisulpride
was the original third-generation antipsychotic. Ref: 1
A dopamine system stabilizer acts as an agonist of the dopamine receptors at
low dopamine concentrations, but acts as an antagonist at high dopamine
concentrations. So it boosts the dopamine system when
dopamine is low, but puts the breaks on the system when dopamine is high.
Refs: 1 2
My theory as to why dopamine stabilizer drugs are helpful for ME/CFS is here.
This paper indicates
the two mechanisms of dopamine stabilization:
Partial agonists that
display affinity for dopamine autoreceptors are
potential stabilisers of dysregulated dopamine
release in schizophrenia (Grunder et al, 2003).
However, it has been suggested that dopamine autoreceptor
antagonists (sulpiride and amisulpride)
also stabilise dopamine systems in schizophrenia by
increasing dopamine release and selectively blocking D2 and D3 receptors in the
limbic system (Kerwin, 2000).
Aripiprazole (Abilify)
comes under the first mechanism, as it is a partial agonist with affinity for
dopamine autoreceptors; and amisulpride
comes under the second mechanism.
The response to amisulpride is also dose-level dependent:
At low doses, amisulpride blocks the
dopamine autoreceptors. An autoreceptor
is presynaptic regulatory feedback mechanism which controls how much of a
neurotransmitter like dopamine is being released into the synapse (the junction
between neurons). When you block the dopamine autoreceptors,
it makes the neuron think there is not enough dopamine in the synapse, so more
dopamine is released. In this way, blocking dopamine autoreceptors
leads to more dopamine release.
But at high doses of amisulpride,
then this drug starts to antagonize the postsynaptic dopamine receptor (the
normal dopamine receptor), and at these higher doses the overall effect is
dopamine antagonism. Refs: 1 2
This study says:
At low doses, amisulpride (100 mg/die or less) preferentially blocks
presynaptic dopamine autoreceptors that control
dopamine synthesis and release; whereas, at higher doses, it presents
postsynaptic dopamine D2-receptor antagonism.
Aripiprazole behaves similarly at the presynaptic and postsynaptic
dopamine receptors. This paper says:
There is evidence that
aripiprazole functions as both a presynaptic D2 agonist and post synaptic D2
antagonist. Presynaptic D2 autoreceptors may play a
vital role in the ability of aripiprazole to act as a DA system stabilizer, but
at higher doses (such as the ones used to treat schizophrenia), aripiprazole
also has a significant binding affinity at post synaptic D2 receptors.
Aripiprazole's dopamine stabilization is described here:
At high dopamine
concentrations, aripiprazole lowers dopamine neuronal firing, while at low
concentrations it increases dopamine firing. At the time, this mechanism of
action was called ‘dopamine stabilization’ because a single drug could increase
or decrease neuronal firing as needed.
Note that amisulpride is not the only antipsychotic
that may show benefit in ME/CFS: quetiapine (Seroquel)
is also used in ME/CFS and fibromyalgia for treating pain and improving sleep
(as well as helping depression ).
There are serious side effects that can result from taking antipsychotics, such
as extrapyramidal symptoms like tardive dyskinesia. And developing type 2
diabetes is a risk too. But on the low-dose protocols of amisulpride
or Abilify, the risks of these side effects are very much less. Refs: here and here.
BUYING AMISULPRIDE:
Amisulpride can be bought prescription-free from any
of the following pharmacies:
InHouse, United Pharmacies, United Pharmacies UK, International Drug Mart, GoldPharma, 4RNX, 4NRX UK, Pharmacy Geoff, Buy Pharma, Freedom Pharmacy, Pharmacy Express, ClearSky Pharmacy, Over-the-Counter.
Other prescription-free pharmacies where amisulpride
can be bought listed in this post.
Amisulpride can also be bought in powder form
at TrueLife
Research.
Spoiler: More
Info on the Unique Advantages of Amisulpride (Click
Here)
Last edited: Aug
14, 2021
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Amisulpride, the Wonder Drug from France!
The following text was copied from here.
Amisulpride is a new antipsychotic drug that was
invented in France. It is so new, it is still in the USA’s final testing stage
for release here, but can still be obtained now legally from Europe.
Amisulpride is a very safe drug with few, if no side
effects, and can be used for three different purposes.
NORMAL DOSE PROTOCOL:
In normal doses, 400mg-1200mg, it is used for symptoms that include and excess
and/or disruption in cognition and emotional functions.
LOW DOSE PROTOCOL:
In lower doses, 50mg-200mg, it is used for symptoms that include a diminution
or loss of normal cognitive and/or emotional functions.
VERY LOW DOSE PROTOCOL:
In even lower doses, 12.5mg-200mg, it is used for minor depression,
attention-deficit/hyperactivity, and emotional imbalances.
It was discovered by accident that amisulpride,
originally created as an antipsychotic drug for schizophrenia, has the
antidepressant effect when taken in minuscule doses as compared to what was
originally intended. The drug appears to have an opposite effect depending on
if small or larger doses are taken.
Originally designed to be taken at 400mg to 800mg a day, when you take Amisulpride instead at just 12.5mg to 100mg a day combats
LOW MOOD, CONSTANT NEGATIVE THOUGHTS, SOCIAL ANXIETY, ANHEDONIA (inability to
experience pleasure), and FATIGUE. These are the symptoms of atypical
depression or dysthymic disorder, which is a mild but continuous form of
depression. The symptoms are characterized by blahness,
lack of motivation, lack of interest, and social withdrawal. While combating
these problems in an amazing way that no other drug seems to do, the low, low
dose also makes amisulpride almost completely free of
side effects, so it is tolerated by more people, more often than other
anti-depressants.
In a day, or a week or two, depending on the person, on amisulpride
one feels renewed interest, renewed motivation, social comfort, more confident,
and less emotional anxiety. You’ll notice a very strange blunting of ONLY the
emotional triggers that seem to be the ones you’d want to get rid of. It’s
difficult to explain, but a strange yet wonderful experience!
It feels as if you’ve been freed of mental issues that have held you back from
doing things you wish you would be doing.
Each person that has responded to the effect is immediately amazed. Others who
see the transformation of their friends have been equally amazed.
Because amisulpride has an opposite effect at higher
doses, for depressive treatment, you must prepare yourself to cut back on the
dose if you feel any negative effects like sedation. Rather than immediately
giving up, be aware that this is exactly what it’s supposed to do, and it
simply means that your body is so sensitive that a lower dose is the
appropriate one for you.
Most drugs don’t have the opposite effect the moment the dose is too high, so
this unique quality should be known before you start on your journey.
Every person is different and it takes a unique milligram dose for each person
that could be anywhere between as little as 12.5mg to 100mg so you need to
understand that it’s not a bad thing if you don’t feel the correct effect; you
simply adjust the dose and continue to find the exact amount that is right for
you. DON’T GIVE UP!
Specifically, a the low doses, Amisulpride
is a “selective dopamine antagonist” which stimulates specific types of
dopamine receptors (D2 and D3) on their presynaptic side. D2/D3 limbic system
pathways are thought to be involved in regulating mood, anxiety and motivation.
Unlike many other medications, it exclusively acts in the mesolimbic brain,
which is unusual, because this is the site where emotional mood states and
memory storage and retrieval takes place in your brain. This is great because
it doesn’t unnecessarily stimulate other dopaminergic receptors elsewhere in
the brain, so locomotion and general attention/arousal systems are largely
bypassed, eliminating sleep disturbances, anxiety exacerbations, the jitters,
and scattered and/or hyper-attentiveness. For this specific purpose, it is used
in very low doses (12.5-100mg/day).
Since it was designed to be used at much higher doses, there are few side
effects at these low doses. Keep in mind it may take up to two weeks to feel
any effects from amisulpride, so try it for at least
2 weeks! It seems to have a very unusual ability to tone down a person’s
unwanted emotional outbursts in a very precise clean way, while preserving the
drive to accomplish important matters in their life. Strangely enough, it
actually seems to shut down the part of the brain that spends time worrying
about other people’s problems or going in circles about personal emotional
issues. The emotional spin cycle simply disappears!
It’s such a wonderful feeling to have emotional baggage simply lifted from you
within the course of 2 weeks without therapy!
At doses above 400mg, amisulpride stimulates the same
dopamine receptors but on their postsynaptic side. At this dosage, amisulpride treats disorganized symptoms including thought
disorder, confusion, disorientation, and memory problems.
This drug was invented in France, and is still in Phase III FDA testing here in
the USA, therefore it is only available by mailorder
from Europe. It is not a scheduled substance and is legal to import in personal
use quantities. Amisulpride works in a novel way, it
doesn’t affect seratonin at all, it affects only
dopamine, so it works when SSRI antidepressants don’t. Specifically, it
increases the dopamine in the synaptic cleft of the D2-D3 receptors in the
limbic system and to a lesser extent the striatum. It improves mood,
concentration, energy, and sense of pleasure while decreasing social anxieties.
More info
Amisulpride: A Review of its Clinical Potential in Dysthymia
Amisulpride in medium-term treatment of dysthymia
Amisulpride dosage
One half 50mg tablet (25mg) once a day (use a razor blade to cut pills in
half).
The effect is generally seen in 7-14 days.
If you feel sedation, cut back to 12.5mg/day ¼ tablet.
Since amisulpride has the OPPOSITE effect at higher
doses, you should realize a dose too high will cause an effect opposite of what
is desired.
Alternatively, if you feel no effect at 25mg/day, you can raise the dosage by
25mg increments to 100mg day maximum to get the best effect for you.
Wait at least a week after each 25mg increment; keep in mind 12.5mg-50mg should
be sufficient.
Not available in the USA.
Last edited: Aug
14, 2021
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One problem with the
drug is that prolactin levels often go through the roof. Did you experience
this?
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One problem with the
drug is that prolactin levels often go through the roof. Did you experience
this?
I haven't developed
any "man boobs" (gynecomastia), which I believe is a symptom of high
prolactin in men. Though I do notice my libido is significantly reduced on days
when I take amisulpride — and reduced libido can
result from high prolactin.
I usually take a very low 12.5 mg daily dose of amisulpride;
and every week or two, I take a break from amisulpride
for a couple of days. So at this very low dose,
perhaps I am not raising my prolactin levels too much.
Even so, I wish I could find a workaround to prevent the low libido induced by amisulpride.
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Pantethine should be an inhibitor of prolactin, by the way. I use it with
pregnenolone and DHEA. I haven't done any tests, but libido is good.
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Pantethine should be an inhibitor of prolactin, by the way. I use it with
pregnenolone and DHEA. I haven't done any tests, but libido is good.
I might try that. I
read that pantethine may have some neuroprotective
effects, plus it seems to treat fatty liver, which I have.
Vitamin B6, vitamin E and SAM-e are
good prolactin inhibitors, according to this article.
Last edited: Mar
2, 2016
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Doesn't look like
there is much hope for resolving sexual sides, aside from a switch to
aripiprazole, which may or may not provide any of the same benefits:
J Sex Marital Ther. 2012;38(3):281-301.
doi: 10.1080/0092623X.2011.606883.
Strategies for the
treatment of antipsychotic-induced sexual dysfunction and/or hyperprolactinemia
among patients of the schizophrenia spectrum: a review.
Nunes LV, Moreira HC, Razzouk D, Nunes SO, Mari Jde
J.
Source
Department of Psychiatry, Universidade Estadual de Londrina, Paraná, Brazil.
Abstract
There is limited evidence for the management of sexual dysfunction and/or
hyperprolactinemia resulting from use of antipsychotics in patients with
schizophrenia and spectrum. The aim of this study was to review and describe
the strategies for the treatment of antipsychotic-induced sexual dysfunctions
and/or hyperprolactinemia. The research was carried out through Medline/PubMed,
Cochrane, Lilacs, Embase, and PsycINFO, and it included open labels or
randomized clinical trials. The authors found 31 studies: 25 open-label
noncontrolled studies and 6 randomized controlled clinical trials. The
randomized, double-blind controlled studies that were conducted with adjunctive
treatment that showed improvement of sexual dysfunction and/or decrease of
prolactin levels were sildenafil and aripiprazole. The medication selegiline
and cyproheptadine did not improve sexual function. The switch to quetiapine
was demonstrated in 2 randomized controlled studies: 1 showed improvement in
the primary outcome and the other did not. This reviewed data have suggested that further well-designed randomized
controlled trials are needed to provide evidence for the effects of different
strategies to manage sexual dysfunction and/or hyperprolactinaemia
resulting from antipsychotics. These trials are necessary in order to have a
better compliance and reduce the distress among patients with schizophrenia.
PMID:
22533871
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Actually, it looks
like maybe you can add aripiprazole to another antipsychotic and its partial d2
agonism is able to keep prolactin down. It isn't clear how that would affect
the benefits of amisulpride though, seems to me if it
can overpower the d2 antagonism of other antipsychotics at the pituitary, it
would be able to do it throughout the brain:
J Psychopharmacol. 2008
May;22(3):244-53. doi: 10.1177/0269881107082901.
Change in sexual
dysfunction with aripiprazole: a switching or add-on study.
Mir A, Shivakumar K, Williamson RJ, McAllister V, O'Keane V, Aitchison KJ.
Source
COAST Team (Croydon Early Intervention in Psychosis Service), Westways Resource Centre, Croydon, UK.
Abstract
Sexual dysfunction and raised prolactin are common adverse effects of many
anti-psychotics. Aripiprazole is an atypical anti-psychotic associated with a
reduction in prolactin level in anti-psychotic-induced hyperprolactinemia. Our
hypothesis was that switching from another anti-psychotic to aripiprazole would
be associated with a reduction in sexual dysfunction. An open label switch to
aripiprazole was offered to 27 subjects with inadequate therapeutic response or
intolerance to another anti-psychotic, who were followed up for 26 weeks.
Serial clinical ratings included the Anti-psychotic Non-Neurological
Side-Effects Rating Scale (ANNSERS), and the Sexual Functioning Questionnaire.
Our primary analysis point was week 12. In both sexes, there was a significant
reduction in prolactin by week 12 (P = 0.003), accompanied by a significant
improvement in libido (P = 0.028). In males, both erectile and ejaculatory
difficulties were also significantly reduced (P = 0.04 and P = 0.017,
respectively). In females, menstrual dysfunction was also significantly reduced
at week 12 (P = 0.04). By week 26, the changes in all of the above remained
significant, and were accompanied by a significant increase in satisfaction in
overall sexual functioning (P = 0.007), despite the fact that 54.5% of subjects
at were also taking their original antipsychotic. There was also a significant
decrease in the total ANNSERS score (P < 0.001) and a significant
improvement in all other measures of psychopathology (PANSS, CGI-S/I, GAF-S/D,
and QoL). We conclude that switching to aripiprazole or the addition of
aripiprazole to another antipsychotic regime is associated with a reduction in
sexual dysfunction.
PMID:
18308789
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Actually, it looks
like maybe you can add aripiprazole to another antipsychotic and its partial d2
agonism is able to keep prolactin down. It isn't clear how that would affect
the benefits of amisulpride though, seems to me if it
can overpower the d2 antagonism of other antipsychotics at the pituitary, it
would be able to do it throughout the brain:
That is very
interesting. So, if I understand correctly, the reason for excess prolactin
release by amisulpride (and other anti-psychotic
drugs) is because it blocks the dopamine D2 receptors in the pituitary gland.
And aripiprazole has the reverse effect, as it stimulates the pituitary
dopamine D2 receptors.
One of the things I find the most useful with very low dose amisulpride
is that this drug noticeably reduces my irritability and annoyance symptoms.
Irritability seems to be a fairly common symptom in ME/CFS (and in autism). On
bad days, I find myself irritable with everything: people, places, opinions —
anything that moves! Irritability is a very unpleasant symptom — especially
because you always have the urge to express your irritability and annoyance to
people; and yet you know that your irritability is generally not warranted;
it's just a ME/CFS mental symptom that makes you that way; so you have to try
to bite your lip and suppress expressing your irritability.
Interestingly, it seems that aripiprazole is good for treating irritability in
autism, with doses of 2 mg and higher, so I wonder if aripiprazole may work for
ME/CFS irritability too. Ref: 1.
EDIT: looks like aripiprazole
does not reverse amisulpride-induced hyperprolactinaemia.
Last edited: Aug
14, 2021
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By the way, Funk,
would you have any idea of how aripiprazole treats irritability, in terms of
its actions at receptors. I would like to understand the neurochemistry of
irritability.
Amisulpride not known for its ability to treat
irritability (or at least I have not seen any literature on this), but I have
personally found that amisulpride reduces
irritability symptoms. It makes me a little more tolerant of things, and also
makes me more tolerant of sound and noise.
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Pantethine should be an inhibitor of prolactin, by the way. I use it with
pregnenolone and DHEA. I haven't done any tests, but libido is good.
Sorry to go off topic
but adreno have u found preg and dhea
increase prolactin?
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Pantethine is a precursor to cysteamine, which depletes prolactin:
Prog Neuropsychopharmacol Biol Psychiatry. 1990;14(6):835-62.
Preclinical and clinical
studies with cysteamine and pantethine related to the central nervous system.
Vécsei L, Widerlöv E.
Source
Department of Psychiatry and Neurochemistry,
University of Lund, Sweden.
Abstract
1. Cysteamine is formed by degradation of coenzyme A (CoA) and causes
somatostatin (SS), prolactin and noradrenaline depletion in the brain
and peripheral tissues. 2. Cysteamine influences several behavioral processes,
like active and passive avoidance behavior, open-field activity, kindled
seizures, pain perception and SS-induced barrel rotation. 3. Cysteamine has
several established (cystinosis, radioprotection, acetaminophen poisoning) and
theoretical (Huntington's disease, prolactin-secreting adenomas)
indications in clinical practice. 4. Pantethine is
a naturally occurring compound which is metabolized to cysteamine. 5. Pantethine depletes SS, prolactin and
noradrenaline with lower efficacy compared to that of cysteamine. 6. Pantethine is well tolerated by patients and has been
suggested to treatment of atherosclerosis. The other possible clinical
indications (alcoholism, Parkinson's disease, instead of cysteamine) are
discussed.
PMID: 2277850
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It works in rats:
Pantethine, a cysteamine precursor, depletes immunoreactive
somatostatin and prolactin in the rat.
The depletion of plasma prolactin by pantethine
in oestrogen-primed hyperprolactinaemic
rats.
Whether this would reverse the effects of antipsychotics, I don't know.
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Sorry to go off topic
but adreno have u found preg and dhea
increase prolactin?
They do from the
studies I have seen, IIRC. They also gave me tingling nipples in the beginning,
but it went away (with pantethine, I presume)
Just a daydreamer in all aspects.
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Hi Hip. I'm also
taking amisulpride for my ADHD, but I haven't seen
any result that just somnolence since three weeks ago
Does it help for concentration? I'm taking 50 mg now, but as you say, I must
cut back to 25 mg. What is the best dosage? 25 or 12.5 mg? Does it depend on my
weight? Thank you so much.
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Hi Hip. I'm also
taking amisulpride for my ADHD, but I haven't seen
any result that just somnolence since three weeks ago
Does it help for concentration? I'm taking 50 mg now, but as you say, I must
cut back to 25 mg. What is the best dosage? 25 or 12.5 mg? Does it depend on my
weight? Thank you so much.
I usually take 12.5 mg
daily. What I personally find is that taking 25 mg gives a stronger effect, but
I get the impression this higher dose reduces my motivation and reduces my
focus on doing things. So this is why I usually stick
with 12.5 mg.
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I just found this
thread on Phoenix Rising on using the above-mentioed
atypical antipsychotic drug Abilify (aripiprazole) for treating ME/CFS:
Abilify and energy
I have just ordered some Abilify, and will compare its benefits to those of amisulpride.
I have a good opinion of atypical antipsychotics as a treatment for ME/CFS
(based so far on my experience with amisulpride) and
others might find these drugs useful.
General Note:
Don't be concerned about using an antipsychotic drug for ME/CFS. Atypical
antipsychotics are not just used for psychosis and schizophrenia: atypical
antipsychotics are also used off-label for many other conditions, such as: depression,
ADHD, anxiety disorder, bipolar disorder, PTSD, OCD, dementia, etc (reference: here).
Atypical antipsychotic drugs alter levels of neurotransmitters in various part
of the brain; the only thing that really matters is whether the changes these
drugs make to neurotransmitter levels translates to a benefit for ME/CFS
patients; it is of no importance at all that these drugs are labelled as
antipsychotics — that is just part of their function.
In any case, the doses of these drugs used for ME/CFS treatment are much, much
smaller than the dose used for psychosis and schizophrenia.
Last edited: Jan
9, 2019
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Even atypical
antipsychotics potentially have some very nasty side effects (diabetes, tardive
dyskinesia etc), so just be careful. Personally I won't touch them, not even Abilify. I also
believe that modulating the glutamate/GABA balance is more effective than
blocking dopamine.
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Even atypical
antipsychotics potentially have some very nasty side effects (diabetes, tardive
dyskinesia etc), so just be careful. Personally I won't touch them, not even Abilify. I also
believe that modulating the glutamate/GABA balance is more effective than
blocking dopamine.
Point taken. I would
definitely say that to help minimize the possibility of side effects, take the
lowest does you feel is offering benefits. In my case, my daily dose of just
12.5 mg of amisulpride is very much lower than the
400 to 800 mg doses used for treating schizophrenia and psychosis. So I hope that this makes the risk of side effects much
lower. I have been taking amisulpride for a year now,
and have seen no real side effects.
Amisulpride Side Effects: Assessment of
Risks
I cannot find any data on amisulpride, but found some
info on a similar drugs risperidone and clozapine, which are also from the
atypical anti-psychotic drug class. Risperidone is used to treat ME/CFS
(risperidone one of Dr Jay Goldstein's ME/CFS treatments that sometimes brings
major remission from ME/CFS).
It says here that
the risk of developing diabetes mellitus from the atypical anti-psychotic
drug risperidone is 0.05% (= 1 in 2000 patients), and the risk
from the atypical anti-psychotic drug clozapine is 2.03% (= 1
in 50 patients). Though these statistics I think apply to people taking the
full dose of these drugs, not the very low dose regimen that I use.
In the case of the very low dose amisulpride that I
am taking, my dose of 12.5 mg is almost 100 times smaller than
the highest 1200 mg dose of amisulpride used for
schizophrenia, so presumably that very low dose significantly lowers the
diabetes risk.
Also, in this very low dose protocol, amisulpride
works in the opposite way to its full dose regimen. In the
very low dose protocol, amisulpride actually boosts the
dopaminergic system, whereas in the full dose regimen, amisulpride inhibits the
dopaminergic system (which antipsychotics usually do). Amisulpride
is in effect a different drug when used at the very low dose protocol.
It is the dopaminergic inhibition caused by anti-psychotics that is linked to
triggering the extrapyramidal symptoms like tardive dyskinesia; so the fact
that in my very low dose amisulpride protocol I get
dopaminergic boosting rather than inhibition perhaps means that this very low
dose protocol will not be less subject to the risks of extrapyramidal symptoms.
But even low-dose amisulpride can sometimes lead to
tardive dyskinesia: see this study of a patient who was give
low-dose amisulpride (100 mg daily) as an
antidepressant.
Last edited: Dec
28, 2018
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One of my main reasons
for taking amisulpride is because I find it increases
my social motivations; that is to say, amisulpride
increases my desires to engage in social activity.
I find that it it not just the fatigue of ME/CFS that
draws you away from socializing; there seems to be an increased need for peace
and solitude in ME/CFS, with too much social activity perturbing the mind. I
sometimes feel my mind has been almost "mentally raped" after too
much social activity. I think this feeling of being "mentally raped"
is actually caused by a weakened "mental firewall" — that is to say,
a weakness in the mind's sensory stimuli filter, which allows stimuli to enter
into consciousness, when they really should have been filtered out. This weakened
"mental firewall" I think is also the reason for noise sensitivity in
ME/CFS.
I am pretty sure this "mental firewall" itself is located in
the reticular formation of the brainstem. The reticular
formation's functions are known to include filtering out irrelevant or repetitive
stimuli, so that the rest of the mind is not overloaded with unnecessary
information. So for example, for a normal healthy
person, if they hear a car alarm go off in their street, at first this noise
rouses their consciousness attention, but then they soon forget about it, and
after a few minutes, it does not enter consciousness anymore. This filtering
out is called habituation, and is the reticular formation's
"firewall" springing into action, and blocking irrelevant, repetitive
stimuli from reaching consciousness and thereby overloading the brain.
However, I find that in ME/CFS, repetitive noises such as car alarms are
constantly aggravating, because you do not seem to habituate to the noise, and
so the noise continually deeply penetrates into your conscious mind and becomes
unpleasant; this repetitive noise is not properly filtered out by your
"mental firewall".
I suspect a weakened reticular formation "firewall" is the norm in
ME/CFS, and this leads to the feeling of being overwhelmed or "mentally
raped" when exposed to too many stimuli, as you tend to get in hectic
social situations. These stimuli are penetrating deep into the mind, whereas
they should have been stopped by the "firewall", stopped by the
brain's bouncer at the door: the reticular formation.
Anyway, what I have found is that amisulpride seems
to make this "mental firewall" stronger, so that you are more able to
cope with the maelstrom of social environments; and with amisulpride
I find that sounds and other sensory stimuli are not so mentally intrusive.
Amisulpride — A Multipurpose Drug
for ME/CFS
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I haven't developed
any "man boobs" (gynecomastia), which I believe is a symptom of high
prolactin in men. Though I do notice my libido is significantly reduced on days
when I take amisulpride — and reduced libido can
result from high prolactin.
I usually take a very low 12.5 mg daily dose of amisulpride;
and every week or two, I take a break from amisulpride
for a couple of days. So at this very low dose,
perhaps I am not raising my prolactin levels too much.
Even so, I wish I could find a workaround to prevent the low libido induced by amisulpride.
Yeah, when I was on
Risperdal which also affects prolactin that killed my libido. It was great for
treating anxiety and insomnia though, but I wouldn't recommend it since it also
causes weight gain, high cholesterol, and high blood sugar.
"Overcome any bitterness that may have come because you
were not up to the magnitude of pain that was entrusted to you. Like the mother
of the world who carries the pain of the world in her heart, each one of us is
part of her heart, and therefore endowed with a certain measure of cosmic pain.
You are sharing in the totality of that pain. You are called upon to meet it in
joy instead of self-pity."
+/+ COMT V158M, COMT H62H, VDR Bsm,
MAO-A R297R, MTRR A66G, BHMT-02, BHMT-04, BHMT-08
+/- MTHFR C677T, MTHFR 03 P39P, MTHFR A1298C, MTR
A2756G, MTRR A664A, CBS A360A
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Pantethine should be an inhibitor of prolactin, by the way. I use it with
pregnenolone and DHEA. I haven't done any tests, but libido is good.
May I ask what dosage
of pantethine you are/were taking, adreno?
Has any else had sucess with countering amisulpride's prolactin effects by taking pantethine?
+/+ COMT
V158M, COMT H62H, MAO A R297R, BHMT-08
+/- VDR Bsm, VDR Taq, MTHFR C677T, MTHFR
A1298C, MTRR H595Y, MTRR K350A, MTRR
A664A, BHMT-02, BHMT-04, CBS C699T, CBS A360A, SHMT1
C1420T
PR activist
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May I ask what dosage
of pantethine you are/were taking, adreno?
Has any else had sucess with countering amisulpride's prolactin effects by taking pantethine?
Actually
I am no longer sure it's effective. I read a study saying that it only works
with IV pantethine, not oral. I haven't had any
tests, so I can't say for sure. The following list of prolactin inhibitors are
likely more effective:
Prolactin Inhibitor Supplements Set
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Actually
I am no longer sure it's effective. I read a study saying that it only works
with IV pantethine, not oral. I haven't had any
tests, so I can't say for sure. The following list of prolactin inhibitors are
likely more effective:
Prolactin Inhibitor Supplements Set
Thanks for the update,
adreno.
Seeing as I'm currently getting 400IU E, 30mg Zinc and 30mg B6, I will try and
add 50 mg P5P.
+/+ COMT
V158M, COMT H62H, MAO A R297R, BHMT-08
+/- VDR Bsm, VDR Taq, MTHFR C677T, MTHFR
A1298C, MTRR H595Y, MTRR K350A, MTRR
A664A, BHMT-02, BHMT-04, CBS C699T, CBS A360A, SHMT1
C1420T
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@Hip you
may have said this but I'm wondering can you take amisulpride
on an as needed basis, or does it have to be taken daily? Thanks
Age 24. Sick since
2009. housebound/bedridden; Hashimoto's, orthostatic intolerance, ME; COMT
H262H+/-, COMT 61+/-, VDR Taq+/-, VDR Fok+/-, MTHFR
C677T+/-, MTRR A66G+/-, MTRR 11+/-, BHMT2+/-, BHMT4+/-, BHMT8+/-, CBS A36OA+/-,
NOS D298E+/-; On Yasko protocol since November 2013
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@Hip you
may have said this but I'm wondering can you take amisulpride
on an as needed basis, or does it have to be taken daily? Thanks
Yes, I think you
should be able to take as and when you need it.
I find the beneficial effects of amisulpride kick in
quickly, within an hour or two of taking it. And these beneficial effects last
for a good 24 hours.
The beneficial effects for me are the very significant reduction in
irritability symptoms (it almost eliminates my irritability), a substantial
reduction in the ME/CFS noise sensitivity (although this is not entirely
eliminated), and I find amisulpride improves
sociability: it makes you enjoy being with people more.
So I think it should be possible to take amisulpride
just on the days when you have say more sound sensitivity than normal, or more
irritability than normal.
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@Hip ok
thanks thats really helpful. its
a prescription right? do you get it prescribed by your regular doc? cus it seems like (from wiki) that its
a psych drug.. can my GP prescribe it..
I dont know if she will feel comfortable.
ps feel free to PM me if this too personal
Age 24. Sick since
2009. housebound/bedridden; Hashimoto's, orthostatic intolerance, ME; COMT
H262H+/-, COMT 61+/-, VDR Taq+/-, VDR Fok+/-, MTHFR
C677T+/-, MTRR A66G+/-, MTRR 11+/-, BHMT2+/-, BHMT4+/-, BHMT8+/-, CBS A36OA+/-,
NOS D298E+/-; On Yasko protocol since November 2013
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I buy amisulpride 50 mg tablets online from prescription-free
pharmacies (and then break the tablet into quarters). There are links to some
pharmacies that sell amisulpride in the first post of
this thread.
I am not sure how readily your GP will prescribe it, but it cannot hurt to ask I guess. I should really ask my own GP if he will
prescribe it, just to save money. But in fact amisulpride works out to be very economical when you only
take 12.5 mg each day, because then one box of 100 x 50 mg tablets (which costs
around $50) will last over a year.
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Grrrrrrr!
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Hi @Hip
Are you still taking amisulpride?
This might be relevant to your 'mental firewall' comments :
Influence of Aripiprazole, Risperidone, and Amisulpride
on Sensory and Sensorimotor Gating in Healthy ‘Low and
High Gating’ Humans and Relation to Psychometry
http://www.researchgate.net/profile...sychometry/links/54d5e2370cf25013d02c0233.pdf
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@Marco
Yes, I have been taking amisulpride 12.5 mg daily for
a few years now.
I was terribly irritable before I discovered amisulpride.
I had irritability almost to autism levels. Amisulpride
really helps this a lot. That is the main reason I take it. Any ME/CFS patient
that often feels grumpy and irritable (irritability is a listed symptom of
ME/CFS) might also find amisulpride alleviates this
unpleasant mental state.
It does help with sound sensitivity (hyperacusis) as well, and also has
antidepressant, energy-boosting and brain fog alleviating effects I find.
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Are there natural
supplements that have a similar effect?
The illiterate of the
21st century will not be those who cannot read and write, but those who cannot
unlearn the many lies they've been taught to believe.
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Are there natural
supplements that have a similar effect?
Not as far as I am
aware, but you may want to research it.
Very low dose amisulpride in effect acts like an agonist
of the dopamine D2 and D3 receptors (very low dose amisulpride
works on the dopamine autoreceptors, which has the
effect of stimulating the receptor).
So to simulate very low dose amisulpride's effects,
you'd need one or more supplements that can do that.
D2 agonists listed here; D3 agonists
listed here. As you can
see, the only natural substance listed is salvinorin
A, which is a partial D2 agonist. Salvinorin A is
found in Salvia divinorum, a
herb which is feasible to use in low doses, but at normal doses is a potent
psychedelic / dissociative.
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the only natural
substance listed is salvinorin A
Isn't LSD natural as
well? I know some people use it to relieve anxiety.
The illiterate of the
21st century will not be those who cannot read and write, but those who cannot
unlearn the many lies they've been taught to believe.
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Isn't LSD natural as
well? I know some people use it to relieve anxiety.
LSD is semisynthetic,
famously first synthesized by Albert Hofmann.
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Hello hip, I have
depression and I want tryed Amisulpride,
one time to 8 mg my depression was worse with sleep tendence after 30 minutes (althrough amisulpride doesnt sedate), another time to 20 mg I had nothing bad
also even a increase libido
after one hour, another time to 0.5 mg I was very irritable only.
Last night I tryed again 20 mg and no effects
appeared, perhaps only my sleep went away, I want have the good mood and the
increase. Libido from dopamine, what should I do ? To
take every day 20 or less ?
For. Example when I had good libido with 20 last year, next day I tok 12 mg and all was worse also libido down and mood too,
also I stopped taking it, I understand nothing.
I didnt take more than one day because what was
happened.
I am waiting for your answer.
Last edited: Nov
1, 2015
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@ovideo1978
I take ¼ of a 50 mg tablet of amisulpride each
morning, and the antidepressant effects appear in two hours.
If very low dose amisulpride does not work for you,
you may want to try another antidepressant, such as an SSRI drug, or TCA drug.
You can also try high dose inositol (15 grams daily), as this can be a good
antidepressant.
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I understood but the
problem is that in 2012 worked 20 mg for a day, and in another day too in 2012
worked 100 mg better giving a confortable feeling,
how ?!
Also for 23 hours ago I tok 20 mg Amisulpride
(also 01-11-2015 at 00 AM) , today morning also after
10 hours from intake I had a unconfortable mood, I
had before too but not so bad, is the dose to high ?
At 4:00 AM also after 5 hours, my plasma level of Amisulpride
will be 5 mg.
A 5 mg dose how it is ?
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@ovideo1978
I do not understand the question you are asking.
New Patient? ➤ ME/CFS — A Roadmap for Testing and Treatment
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I said that after 20
mg Amisulpride, today I was felling some bad, also is
the dose too much ?
5 mg cand be a good very low dose ?
How worked in 2012 20 mg and 100, and now not ?!
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How worked in 2012 20
mg and 100, and now not ?!
Difficult to say.
I found the effects of drugs can change over the years. For example, when I
first took the drug pramipexole, it had an antidepressant effect. But a few
years later, pramipexole stopped acting as an antidepressant for me.
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Im living in Germany and
searching for a few amisulpride samples (fast
shipping from europe), my irritability is to the roof
and only ritalin helps but only 3 hours.
Would, of course, pay for it.
Please write me.
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@Naibaf -
It would be illegal for someone to provide you with a prescription drug which
they have obtained.
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Im living in Germany and
searching for a few amisulpride samples (fast
shipping from europe), my irritability is to the roof
and only ritalin helps but only 3 hours.
In the first post of
this thread, there is a list of online pharmacies where you can buy amisulpride without needing a prescription.
For irritability symptoms, see also this thread: List of Biochemical Causes for Irritability
New Patient? ➤ ME/CFS — A Roadmap for Testing and Treatment
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Is a farmacy from begin of this tread wo send from a Europe
Country (EU) ? Because I am in a Europe country and if
they send too from a EU country, i
have not problems with custom office.
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Is a farmacy from begin of this tread wo send from a Europe
Country (EU) ? Because I am in a Europe country and if
they send too from a EU country, i
have not problems with custom office.
You can try: http://www.internationaldrugmart.eu/pharmacy/us/amisulpride.html
But I don't know which country they ship drugs from. And they don't ship to
Germany.
New Patient? ➤ ME/CFS — A Roadmap for Testing and Treatment
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Thx, normal they must
say from where they send because is very important for the receiver in Europa,
when they doesn`t send from a EU country, is problem
for the receiver to custom office, when they send from a EU country, the
receiver receive the packet home without problems.
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@ovideo1978
So why don't you write to them and ask if they can ship from Europe.
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Yes, they send from
India, i asked.
Have someone ideea which prescriptionfree
parhmacy sells Buprenorphine (Suboxone, Subutex) ? For me is very good in very low doses for depression.
Or Pentobarbital (Nembutal) 100 mg pills who sell.
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I'm going to be
starting on amisulpride very soon, i'm very excited after reading how effective it can be as
an antidepressant. However, i've also read about the
infamous "poop out". I'm wondering if anyone here has managed to stay
on amisulpride for a long time without experiencing
it pooping out. If so, how did you do it? Do you take it every day, every other
day?
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However, i've also read about the infamous "poop out". I'm
wondering if anyone here has managed to stay on amisulpride
for a long time without experiencing it pooping out.
I have used very low
dose amisulpride daily for several years without any
loss of effect.
Remember that very low dose amisulpride can
almost be thought of as a different drug to amisulpride:
the former activates dopamine D2 and D3 receptors, whereas the
latter does the reverse and inhibits these same receptors.
New Patient? ➤ ME/CFS — A Roadmap for Testing and Treatment
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I have used very low
dose amisulpride daily for several years without any
loss of effect.
Remember that very low dose amisulpride can
almost be thought of as a different drug to amisulpride:
the former activates dopamine D2 and D3 receptors, whereas the
latter does the reverse and inhibits these same receptors.
Did you start amisulpride by taking 12,5 mg daily? Or did you taper down?
From what i've read, a lot of people experience a
massive improvement within the first few days on amisulpride.
Which then fades, but comes back again after a couple of weeks. Did you
experience this?
Last edited: Nov
30, 2015
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I have only ever taken
12.5 mg, and I also experimented with 25 mg, but found that reduced motivation,
and increased mental inertia.
When you refer to people's experiences of amisulpride,
are you talking about the very low dose regimen, the lower dose regimen, or the
normal dose regimen?
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I have only ever taken
12.5 mg, and I also experimented with 25 mg, but found that reduced motivation,
and increased mental inertia.
When you refer to people's experiences of amisulpride,
are you talking about the very low dose regimen, the lower dose regimen, or the
normal dose regimen?
I don't know what dose
they were taking exactly, i think between 12,5 mg and
50 mg. They said it takes like 3 or 4 weeks for the improvements to come back
after it fades within the first days of starting it. This makes me wonder if i should stay on 12,5 mg for at least 6 weeks before i try a higher dose. When did amisulpride
kick in for you?
By the way, are the amisulpride pills easy to split?
Or do you have to use some clipper of sort?
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For me 12.5 mg of amisulpride kicks in quickly: I feel the antidepressant, etc, effects of this drug appear within 2 hours or so of
taking it. These effects then last for a good 24 to 36 hours.
Thus I could if I wanted to just take this drug on the days
I feel I need it. However, because I find this drug so beneficial, I end up
taking it every day. It works as well for me now as it did the very first time I took it. Never notice any tolerance build-up.
Last edited: Dec
5, 2015
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reeeal
interested in this stuff. thanks for mentioning it hip.
seems like it would cause similar mood-enhancing effects as dopaminergics
w/o the habituation and down-regulation. sweet.
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I received some amisulpride in the mail this morning along with several
other drugs I plan on experimenting with. Typically, before I try a drug, I add
all the drugs I'm taking into an online drug interaction checker so I don't
accidentally kill myself. But since this drug isn't available in Canada or the
US yet, I can't find an interaction checker that recognizes the drug.
I suppose I could add another atypical antipsychotic, but I'm not sure if they
behave the same way. So my question is, do you think
this medication will interact negatively with Wellbutrin? Amisulpride
is a dopamine antagonist and Wellbutrin plays with the dopamine system as well.
I also take the occasional stimulant like Modafinil and very rarely a lick of
amphetamine.
@Hip I
assume you take this medication in the daytime?
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I take it first thing
in the morning, once daily, at a dose of 12.5 mg (a quarter of a 50 mg tablet).
Some of amisulpride's drug interactions are
listed here.
There is a drug interactions checker here that recognizes amisulpride.
There is a major drug interaction between risperidone (another atypical
anti-psychotic) and bupropion. But could not find any interaction between
bupropion and amisulpride.
Note also that 12.5 mg daily is a very low dose amisulpride
protocol. The maximum dose of amisulpride is 1200 mg,
so any interactions at 12.5 mg daily will likely be a lot less significant than
at the max dose.
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I take it first thing
in the morning, once daily, at a dose of 12.5 mg (a quarter of a 50 mg tablet).
Some of amisulpride's drug interactions are
listed here.
There is a drug interactions checker here that recognizes amisulpride.
There is a major drug interaction between risperidone (another atypical
anti-psychotic) and bupropion. But could not find any interaction between
bupropion and amisulpride.
Note also that 12.5 mg daily is a very low dose amisulpride
protocol. The maximum dose of amisulpride is 1200 mg,
so any interactions at 12.5 mg daily will likely be a lot less significant than
at the max dose.
Cheers, thanks Hip.
I'm going to save that interaction checker. I have a few Goldstein meds to try
first, but should get around to the Amisulpride
shortly. Thanks again.
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I take it first thing
in the morning, once daily, at a dose of 12.5 mg (a quarter of a 50 mg tablet).
Some of amisulpride's drug interactions are
listed here.
There is a drug interactions checker here that recognizes amisulpride.
There is a major drug interaction between risperidone (another atypical
anti-psychotic) and bupropion. But could not find any interaction between
bupropion and amisulpride.
Note also that 12.5 mg daily is a very low dose amisulpride
protocol. The maximum dose of amisulpride is 1200 mg,
so any interactions at 12.5 mg daily will likely be a lot less significant than
at the max dose.
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Any opinions whether amisulpride or ability works better for anxiety
(accompanies other chronic fatigue symptoms)
I am using Abilify but wonder if amisulpride would
work better.
Which online site did you purchase amisulpride from?
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I would recommend
staying far away from anti-psychotics for treating anxiety, not least because
these drugs have serious side effects. The way @Hip uses
Amisulpride makes sense, as it acts as a dopamine
agonist at low dosage. At a normal dosage, this drug will act completely
different and most likely be counter-productive for treating any anxiety
symptoms. Abilify, I'm not sure if it has this inverse dopamine receptor effect
of Amisulpride, so even at low dosage it could be
totally useless for anxiety.
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I am using Abilify but
wonder if amisulpride would work better.
I tried Abilify
(aripiprazole), but found it over-stimulated me a bit, but other than that its
effect were similar to very low dose amisulpride. However, I only tried one 1.25 mg tablet of
Abilify, which due to the long half life of Abilify
(75 hours), had effects that lasted for almost a week. So
I don't have that much experience of Abilify, apart from this one test.
Which online site did
you purchase amisulpride from?
See the pharmacies in
the first post of this thread.
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I would recommend
staying far away from anti-psychotics for treating anxiety, not least because
these drugs have serious side effects.
Generally speaking what @JES says
is good advice. Because of serious side effects (like triggering diabetes),
atypical anti-psychotics are only used to treat anxiety if other anti-anxiety
medications have failed.
I use very low dose amisulpride because it helps
treat the significant irritability symptoms I have, which actually are a very
unpleasant symptom, and makes me more sociable (reduces the tendency to social
withdrawal). Also, I also find very low dose amisulpride
is one of the few antidepressants that work for me. And it does a good job in
reducing the ME/CFS sound sensitivity symptom. So for
me offers a number of very useful benefits.
The atypical anti-psychotics can be classified in relation to their risk of
triggering diabetes. The ones with the highest risk of inducing diabetes are Clorazil (clozapine) and Zyprexa (olanzipine).
Medium risk are Seroquel (quetiapine) and Risperdal (risperidone).
But Abilify (aripiprazole) and Geodon (ziprasidone) are low risk (they are not
considered a diabetes risk). Ref: here.
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My worst anxiety
symptom is irritability. I'm not sure if that's actually anxiety, but it's a
frustrating symptom nevertheless. And regular anxiety drugs, like the ssris, don't seem to improve it that much. And abilify at 2 mg is helping, but a lot of it is being
cancelled out by the "overstimulation" effect that Hip mentioned. I
feel kind of manic, although I'm not bipolar, but I'm just guessing that's what
it would feel like... I'm also concerned with sexual function. Abilify seems to
be increasing the drive, but sexual function isn't better and might be worse.
But abilify has worked better than any other med on
one symptom that's rather annoying....obsessing over
health problems. While it's important to find answers, it's counterproductive
to actually finding them if you can't stop obsessing.
That's really interesting that abilify has that long
of a half-life. That explains why when I ran out and had to skip a day or two I didn't feel much different for most of the time. That
gives me an idea that I might try cycling the abilify
or maybe the amisulpride if I decide to try that. The
one thing that sounds more intriguing about amisulpride
is that it helps you enjoy being around people more, and I don't notice much
improvement with that on abilify. Being drained by
people is depressing. The most useful things abilify's
helped me with are overthinking and focus.
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Such an interesting
thread! I've been convinced about the role of dopamine in me/cfs (at least my version) for many years, but unable to
find a sustainable way to address it. Thanks for all the insights @Hip
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I've been convinced
about the role of dopamine in me/cfs (at least my
version) for many years, but unable to find a sustainable way to address it.
Some other
dopaminergic drugs are detailed in this post.
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Some other
dopaminergic drugs are detailed in this post.
Thanks for that.
I'm about to try a low dose of selegiline...but if that's not useful I think amisulpride is another for me to try.
Cheers,
S.
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Thank you for your
insights @Hip . I describe my brain as being
constipated when coming back from social interactions and it takes days to undo
no matter how hard I've tried to let things flow over me. I completely 'get'
what you are saying. I also find it easier to do things by myself for the same
reason. It's like forced isolation is the only way of getting anything done and
I hate it !! It bizzaire . I'm glad to have stumbled onto this .
Thanks again
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Some other
dopaminergic drugs are detailed in this post.
Are you still using
the Amisulpride with good results?
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Are you still using
the Amisulpride with good results?
I use it every day,
and it continues to work well.
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I'll think about
integrating it into my regimen. Just getting started with SMP, NAG (and the
others recommended in your thread about anxiety) and trying not to start too
many things at once.
Hate the anhedonia though.
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What's the difference
between the mechanisms of amphetamine and amisulpride. I'm asking because amphetamine almost makes me more
stress/depressed. Could be some sort of sensetivity
to norepinephrine. Also, does amisulpride increase
norepinephrine?
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What's the difference
between the mechanisms of amphetamine and amisulpride. I'm asking because amphetamine almost makes me more
stress/depressed. Could be some sort of sensetivity
to norepinephrine. Also, does amisulpride increase
norepinephrine?
Amphetamine is a
stimulant and amisulpride an atypical antpsychotic, I don't think you can compare the two. Amisulpride primarily affects dopamine receptors, and in a
different way depending on whether you use a low or a high dose. I'm not aware
that it has any effect on norepinephrine.
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Also, does amisulpride increase norepinephrine?
Amisulpride's receptor binding affinity profile is given here (smaller numbers mean stronger
binding). As you can see, it does not really bind to norepinephrine receptors,
and I don't think it alters norepinephrine levels very much either (it weakly
increases norepinephrine; ref: 1).
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I use it every day,
and it continues to work well.
With respect to the
NAG: I ordered some of the non-shellfish (I hope) from Swanson. Do you
recommend starting with a whole capsule or trying to divide it up at first? I'm
horribly sensitive to meds and supps and feeling so miserable with the anxiety
that I'm nervous about trying anything new.
The cromolyn sodium helps a lot and quickly but doesn't last long. Couldn't
tolerate the flaxseed oil (got diarrhea) and not sure if the turmeric is doing
much.
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FWIW, I am an Amisulpride advocate, having followed @Hip's
analysis and having similar symptoms.
It does the same for me as above, but I use it in 50mg units once a day in am.
(I mistakenly bought the
only size this supplier had, 400mg, and 1/8's are the smallest 'slices' w/o
powdering the pill, but divides fine
with a standard, ubiquitous plastic pill slicer.)
With a favorable side effect, it allows me to walk away from Sertraline without
titration (take it or leave it), and has a similar effect with clonazepam,
which I have taken for 30 years, minimally. I do wonder if there is an
inherent withdrawal potential w/Amis since it is has
such noticeable efficacy? No need at present to withdraw - only if something
'non-redundant' falls off...
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I have been taking very low doses (12.5 to 25
mg daily) of the drug amisulpride for
around a year now, and I have found this drug quite helpful for a number of
mental and cognitive symptoms that arise in ME/CFS and its comorbid conditions
like depression and anxiety disorder.
At very low doses, amisulpride is know
to act as an:
Antidepressant treatment
Anti-anhedonia treatment
Anti-anxiety treatment
I have also found that very low dose amisulpride
also:
Reduces ME/CFS noise sensitivity symptoms
Greatly reduces ME/CFS irritability symptoms
Improves sociability
Treats anxiety psychosis symptoms (anxiety psychosis from
anxiety disorder)
Improves attention deficit-hyperactivity disorder (ADHD)
I have all the above conditions, and so I found amisulpride
particularly useful.
This small scale study of the
benefits of amisulpride for ME/CFS found that 25 mg
of this drug taken twice daily reduced fatigue and somatic complaints.
Amisulpride is not licensed in the US, but it can be
obtained from the usual overseas suppliers. I believe the smallest available
size of amisulpride tablets is 50 mg, so you will
need to cut these 50 mg tablets in half or in quarters if you want to take the
very lowest doses of 25 mg and 12.5 mg.
BUYING AMISULPRIDE:
Amisulpride can be bought prescription-free from any
of the following pharmacies:
1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 , 8 .
Amisulpride can also be bought in powder form
at TrueLife
Research.
Spoiler: More
Info on the Unique Advantages of Amisulpride (Click
Here)
I started taking 25mg,
but only in the morning as agitation is a side effect
Day number 4
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Hi @Hip,
do you know what kind of dose this represents if they say they test cells with
"1 μM"?
To test whether the
observed Akt activation was specific to haloperidol, we tested 1 μM amisulpride (Fig. 1E), an atypical
antipsychotic drug with a different affinity profile, and found that this
concentration of amisulpride also increased
phosphorylated Akt and phosphorylated S6, indicating activation of the mTORC1
pathway. Thus, haloperidol and amisulpride activated
the Akt-mTORC1 pathway and its downstream effectors of translation within 20
minutes, suggesting a role for the mTORC1 pathway in the acute mechanism of
action of typical and atypical antipsychotics.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4063438/
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Hi @Hip, do you know what kind of dose this
represents if they say they test cells with "1 μM"?
There is no easy way
to reliably convert from in vitro micromolar (μM)
concentrations to an oral dose in grams. However, for a rough and ready way,
you can use my own "home made" formula:
Oral dose = C x M / (B x 250),
which is explained in the second part of this post.
But to save you the trouble, by my calculation using that formula, 1 μM amisulpride works out to
a human oral dose of around 30 mg.
However, one proviso is that the formula is only valid for water soluble drugs,
and amisulpride has poor water solubility (0.293
mg/mL). The 30 mg figure is probably roughly correct, though, as a ballpark
figure.
EDIT: the above formula is not quite right, as it does not account for
plasma protein binding. A more correct one which does is oral dosage in
milligrams = 400 x C x W / ( B x (100 - P)). See this post. Using that formula, a a human oral dose of around 40 mg will achieve a free
concentration of 1 μM amisulpride
in the blood.
Last edited: Aug
14, 2021
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Thanks very much, bad
math can ruin a day and then I thought "I bet Hip already figured it
out". Right on the money. I'll actually use that later.
I still need to actually try amisulpride (been
putting it off for... at least 3 years... but now it's looking a lot better
than herbs)
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Stopped taking it - no
benefit whatsoever
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Any thoughts on LDN vs
Celebrex?
These are quite
different. I don't think you can really compare them. Celebrex can cause
serious side effects like stomach perforation.
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@Stretched You'd
have to check with a drugs interactions checker to see if there are any
concerns mixing those drugs.
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I have been taking very low doses (12.5 mg
daily) of the drug amisulpride for
around a year now, and I have found this drug quite helpful for a number of
mental and cognitive symptoms that arise in ME/CFS and its comorbid conditions
like depression and anxiety disorder.
At very low doses, amisulpride is know
to act as an:
Antidepressant treatment
Anti-anhedonia treatment
Anti-anxiety treatment
I have also found that very low dose amisulpride
also:
Reduces ME/CFS noise sensitivity symptoms
Greatly reduces ME/CFS irritability symptoms
Improves sociability
Treats anxiety psychosis symptoms (anxiety psychosis from
anxiety disorder)
Improves attention deficit-hyperactivity disorder (ADHD)
I have all the above conditions, and so I found amisulpride
particularly useful.
This small scale study of the
benefits of amisulpride for ME/CFS found that 25 mg
of this drug taken twice daily reduced fatigue and somatic complaints.
Amisulpride is not licensed in the US, but it can be
obtained from the usual overseas suppliers. I believe the smallest available
size of amisulpride tablets is 50 mg, so you will
need to cut these 50 mg tablets in half or in quarters if you want to take the
very lowest doses of 25 mg and 12.5 mg.
I find 12.5 mg is a good dose for me; if I go up to 25 mg, it seems to make me
a bit torpid and unmotivated.
UPDATE: Dopamine system stabilization drugs such as amisulpride and aripiprazole have been shown to benefit
ME/CFS when taken in combination with an antidepressant — see this post.
Note that amisulpride is not the only antipsychotic
that may show benefit in ME/CFS: quetiapine (Seroquel)
is also used in ME/CFS and fibromyalgia for treating pain and improving sleep
(as well as helping depression ).
BUYING AMISULPRIDE:
Amisulpride can be bought prescription-free from any
of the following pharmacies:
1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 , 8 .
Amisulpride can also be bought in powder form
at TrueLife
Research.
Spoiler: More
Info on the Unique Advantages of Amisulpride (Click
Here)
Click to expand...
Thanks. I can't see
that (m)any primary ME-CFS symptoms are being redressed by this drug. Seems
like it's better suited to treat other disorders.
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FWIW, I am an Amisulpride advocate, having followed @Hip's
analysis and having similar symptoms.
It does the same for me as above, but I use it in 50mg units once a day in am.
(I mistakenly bought the
only size this supplier had, 400mg, and 1/8's are the smallest 'slices' w/o
powdering the pill, but divides fine
with a standard, ubiquitous plastic pill slicer.)
With a favorable side effect, it allows me to walk away from Sertraline without
titration (take it or leave it), and has a similar effect with clonazepam,
which I have taken for 30 years, minimally. I do wonder if there is an
inherent withdrawal potential w/Amis since it is has
such noticeable efficacy? No need at present to withdraw - only if something
'non-redundant' falls off...
In all candor I have
to report stopping Amisulpride. This past Christmas,
2018, I picked up a case of tremors, as in hands shaking. In reviewing meds it showed this as a possible side effect of
antipsychotics. Coincidentally, in the same time frame my peripheral neuropathy
in my feet flared into severe pain. I don’t know if any of this is connected to
the underlying neurological nature of MECFS, casual or causal. I immediately
stopped Amisulpride and am scheduled to see a
neurologist soon for further evaluation.
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I can't see that
(m)any primary ME-CFS symptoms are being redressed by this drug.
The study showed very
low dose amisulpride substantially reduced
ME/CFS fatigue and somatic complaints like pain (I've
altered the first post to make this clearer).
I also found it reduced the ME/CFS sound sensitivity of
ME/CFS, which is a common symptom. And it helped with anxiety and depression,
which around 1 in 3 ME/CFS patients suffer from as a comorbid condition. And I
found it worked wonders for irritability, which is a listed ME/CFS
symptom in some ME/CFS classifications (this is not surprising, as the
irritability of autism is treated with antipsychotics).
But even at very low doses, this is still an antipsychotic drug, so you would
want to familiarize yourself with the major side effects of antipsychotics can
cause before considering this drug.
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In all candor I have
to report stopping Amisulpride. This past Christmas,
2018, I picked up a case of tremors, as in hands shaking. In reviewing meds it showed this as a possible side effect of
antipsychotics. Coincidentally, in the same time frame my peripheral neuropathy
in my feet flared into severe pain. I don’t know if any of this is connected to
the underlying neurological nature of MECFS, casual or causal. I immediately
stopped Amisulpride and am scheduled to see a
neurologist soon for further evaluation.
Would you mind sharing
what happened eventually?Was
your case of tremors caused by amisulpride?
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Would you mind sharing
what happened eventually?Was
your case of tremors caused by amisulpride?
I’ve been seeing a
neurologist since then as Peripheral Neuropathy in my feet began about that
time. I was worried about Parkinsons Disease but he
said likely not PD after some testing. It looked to him like ‘Essential
tremors,’ one of about 10 common types (see Google). Further, he opined that
they were most often caused by ingestion of other medicines. Since they still
come and go with emotional stress I’m not sure he’s
correct. He didn’t seem too concerned with narrowing down specific rxs. FWIW, my ongoing rx’s
include Ambien, Zoloft, and several heart medications. IMO, the cause could be
Ambien, Or another cause altogether, related to the neurology of MECFS, with
which he is familiar. IAE, I never went back to Amisulpride
since it is known to have
tremors as a side effect. It’s worrisome and uncomfortable, especially when
flared! I hope this helps.
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I’ve been seeing a
neurologist since then as Peripheral Neuropathy in my feet began about that
time. I was worried about Parkinsons Disease but he
said likely not PD after some testing. It looked to him like ‘Essential
tremors,’ one of about 10 common types (see Google). Further, he opined that
they were most often caused by ingestion of other medicines. Since they still
come and go with emotional stress I’m not sure he’s correct.
He didn’t seem too concerned with narrowing down specific rxs.
FWIW, my ongoing rx’s include Ambien, Zoloft, and
several heart medications. IMO, the cause could be Ambien, Or
another cause altogether, related to the neurology of MECFS, with
which he is familiar. IAE, I never went back to Amisulpride
since it is known to have
tremors as a side effect. It’s worrisome and uncomfortable, especially when
flared! I hope this helps.
So the tremors started
while you were taking amisulpride and you still have
them today, so it is quite possible that they were caused by it.the positive side of this possibility is that you
reacted quickly and stopped this from progressing.
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So the tremors started
while you were taking amisulpride and you still have
them today, so it is quite possible that they were caused by it.the positive side of this possibility is that you
reacted quickly and stopped this from progressing.
Possibly, but a key
point in my mind is they will cycle without Amisulpride
again entering the loop. Actually, they seem to emerge at times of increased
stress or anxiety. Some of the time minimal, towards unnoticeable. Do I
think Amisulpride is the etiology? A couple of years
using it might have been a catalyst and opened the gate,
so to speak on the peripheral neuropathy? Or, vice versa It’s not tested.
Last edited: Oct
17, 2019
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I noticed no one
mentioned this before but if something like a 'tremor' develops from taking a
drug classified as antipsychotic, it is not a 'tremor' unfortunately, it's
something called 'tardive dyskinesia' . It's
permanent. Good thing you stopped taking it fast. If you search videos on youtube you'll see, it could have been much worse then a tremor, had you not stopped taking it.
It's the reason I stay away from any and all 'antipsychotics'.
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Geez, TD looks awful!
Some shakiness still comes and goes, re above. I’m wondering if taking Zoloft
for 30+ years has contributed? I’ve read over the years that its efficacy is
questionable, maybe not worth taking. However, stopping its use completely is
difficult. The residual feelings make it just not worth withdrawing.
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In all candor I have
to report stopping Amisulpride. This past Christmas,
2018, I picked up a case of tremors, as in hands shaking. In reviewing meds it showed this as a possible side effect of
antipsychotics. Coincidentally, in the same time frame my peripheral neuropathy
in my feet flared into severe pain. I don’t know if any of this is connected to
the underlying neurological nature of MECFS, casual or causal. I immediately
stopped Amisulpride and am scheduled to see a
neurologist soon for further evaluation.
Hi, may I ask, did
your level of health change positive or negative after ceasing Amisulpride?
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Geez, TD looks awful!
Some shakiness still comes and goes, re above. I’m wondering if taking Zoloft
for 30+ years has contributed? I’ve read over the years that its efficacy is
questionable, maybe not worth taking. However, stopping its use completely is difficult.
The residual feelings make it just not worth withdrawing.
Zoloft is an SSRI
antidepressant. I've found that most of the SSRI medications simply numb one
out, or other such things. The MAOI antidepressants seem to work much better
and without side effects like post SSRI loss of libido, which can be permanent
like TD with the anti-psychotics. They are not used much anymore, as the young
psychiatrists are scared of the so-called "Cheese Effect" they read
about and trust in the newer drugs.
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In all candor I have
to report stopping Amisulpride. This past Christmas,
2018, I picked up a case of tremors, as in hands shaking. In reviewing meds it showed this as a possible side effect of
antipsychotics. Coincidentally, in the same time frame my peripheral neuropathy
in my feet flared into severe pain. I don’t know if any of this is connected to
the underlying neurological nature of MECFS, casual or causal. I immediately
stopped Amisulpride and am scheduled to see a
neurologist soon for further evaluation.
Hi if you don't mind me asking, did you ever reduce your dose from the 50mg of amisulpride?
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Zoloft is an SSRI
antidepressant. I've found that most of the SSRI medications simply numb one
out, or other such things. The MAOI antidepressants seem to work much better
and without side effects like post SSRI loss of libido, which can be permanent
like TD with the anti-psychotics. They are not used much anymore, as the young
psychiatrists are scared of the so-called "Cheese Effect" they read
about and trust in the newer drugs.
Those are just excuses, older drug manufactures don't get paid anymore as
the patent expired and generic forms became available. $$ is only in drugs that
still have a valid patent, hence the doctors also get
a % from newer drugs vs no % from the older ones.
If one had a great doctor, such doctor would even prescribe drugs that aren't
manufactured anymore, with such a prescription you'd go to a specialized lab
that synthetize these, made to order.
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@Hip
Can you let us know how amisulpride helps with PEM?
I notice you extol the mental benefefits but you
mention very little about PEM?
Do you find it improves PEM? If yes, in what way and by what degree?
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Can you let us know
how amisulpride helps with PEM?
I have not noticed any
benefits that amisulpride might have for PEM.
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Thanks for prompt
reply?
This is a surprise. Because most people ive
communicated with who seem to be improving claim more energy and shorter PEM.
Have you got more energy and stamina or are things just the same?
Whilst on this subject are you aware of anybody ( or
have you? ) who has tried L-dopa ?
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Have you got more
energy and stamina or are things just the same?
My symptoms which amisulpride improved are listed in the first post. This
drug worked quite well for sound sensitivity and irritability, I found.
I did not notice any effects on energy or stamina, though a study found amisulpride may improve these (see 1st post).
I have not tried L-dopa.
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My symptoms which amisulpride improved are listed in the first post. This
drug worked quite well for sound sensitivity and irritability, I found.
I did not notice any effects on energy or stamina, though a study found amisulpride may improve these (see 1st post).
I have not tried L-dopa.
Thanks for the info.
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Hi @Hip I
found this old article what I search informations
about Abilify.
Note that amisulpride is not the only antipsychotic that may show
benefit in ME/CFS: quetiapine (Seroquel)
is also used in ME/CFS and fibromyalgia for treating pain and improving sleep
(as well as helping depression ).
You also tried
quetiapine and compared with Amisulpride? Or its
different drugs and cannot be compared?
I ask because I can provide some experience with Quetiapine...from
20 mg to 100 mg. I had it for a long time combined with
Mirtazapine for my sleep disorders in last 2 years. I know that a
larger dose of Quetiapine caused me hot flashes and a feeling of fainting when
I got up at night and went to the toilet. But this is only experience what I
have! No other results that would improve or worsen my condition...
In addition, I think what improved my sleep the most anyway is DNRS training...Im really calm now.
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You also tried
quetiapine and compared with Amisulpride?
I have not really
tried quetiapine; I bought some, but only tested a half of a 50 mg tablet a few
times, and I realized it makes me drowsy, and slightly lightheaded, so I did
not continue with it. I guess the drowsiness might be useful for insomnia, if
taken before bed.
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@Hip how
long do you think this is worth trialing for to see if there's any benefits?
This small scale study of the benefits of amisulpride
for ME/CFS found that 25 mg of this drug taken twice daily reduced fatigue and
somatic complaints, such as pain.
So the study used 12.5mg
twice daily in the mourning and evening, correct? If
this is the case, you might want to make this more clear.
Experimental
treatments Any% speedrun!
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@Hip how long do you
think this is worth trialing for to see if there's any benefits?
I noticed the benefits
immediately, within hours.
The half life of amisulpride
is 12 hours, so you can get away with a single daily dose, especially if like
me you are only awake for 14 hours a day, and asleep for 10.
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I noticed the benefits
immediately, within hours.
I'm interested to see
if I can get any overall improvements in energy/fatigue from Amisulpride, like in the study.
From study:
primary outcome
measure of this efficacy study was symptom alleviation after twelve weeks of
treatment
So I'm wondering if
taking it for a few weeks might be required to see if any benefits manifest.
Experimental
treatments Any% speedrun!
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So I'm wondering if
taking it for a few weeks might be required to see if any benefits manifest.
That's possible. I did
not notice much effect for energy and fatigue, for me it helped things like
sound sensitivity, irritability and depression. It has immediate effects on
those, I find.
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I have already tried
12.5mg, 25mg and 50mg a day (one day each) - no effect. Will trial 25mg daily
for a week or two before giving up.
Experimental
treatments Any% speedrun!
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I started taking 25mg,
but only in the morning as agitation is a side effect
Day number 4
@KennyBanya - it looks
like the True Life Research people are offering ariprazole (Abilify) these days rather than amisulpride.
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have people found amisulpride as benificial as ablifiy. And is so how long did the amisulpride
take effect
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Abilify in small doses
can increase dopamine, but at the risk of Tardive Dskensia.
I don't understand wh6y th6e FDA has never approved Moclobemide. It is a
reversible Monoamine Oxidase Inhibitor which tends to work on MAO A and very
little of MAO B. When I ordered it over the internet, I noticed a fast increase
in less depression and I felt like I could lift things much more easily. The
downside was extreme insomnia. Canada, UK and Australia have it but not in the
US.
Likes:Sancar and Hip
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I haven't developed
any "man boobs" (gynecomastia), which I believe is a symptom of high
prolactin in men. Though I do notice my libido is significantly reduced on days
when I take amisulpride — and reduced libido can
result from high prolactin.
I usually take a very low 12.5 mg daily dose of amisulpride;
and every week or two, I take a break from amisulpride
for a couple of days. So at this very low dose,
perhaps I am not raising my prolactin levels too much.
Even so, I wish I could find a workaround to prevent the low libido induced by amisulpride.
Hello Hip & others
who may be involved:
So then it may not be the best drug for a person who had a pituitary tumor
about 40 years ago? (That was treated with the drug, bromocriptine)?
Also, Hip, what about someone who is on things like lexapro,
lyrica and xanax. I'm
assuming these should be gradually stopped, is that right? Were you ever on
them? My neurologist is ultra-helpful, so will ask him....but
the overseas ordering is a problem. Right now, I'm fairly well stabilized,
can't complain...well, I can, but what's the use?
All advice would be appreciated. 2012 is a long time ago....things
may have changed with all of you since then.
As far as abilify goes, my understanding that low
doses work and shouldn't be used too often or the effects wear off. I would
only use it if I was totally bedridden and a real hardcore case. Better slow
than destroy all effectiveness of any drug. Thanks@ Yours, Lenora.
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So then it may not be
the best drug for a person who had a pituitary tumor about 40 years ago? (That
was treated with the drug, bromocriptine)?
I don't really know, you would have to ask a doctor about that.
Also, Hip, what about
someone who is on things like lexapro, lyrica and xanax. I'm assuming
these should be gradually stopped, is that right? Were you ever on them?
I take a few low-dose
antidepressant drugs along with the very low-dose amisulpride,
in order to treat depression (the drugs I list in this post). But drug compatibility and
interaction are something your doctor should be able to help with.
I still take very low dose amisulpride every day,
which helps for some ME/CFS symptoms, but also helps with the very mild
psychosis-type symptoms I get.
New Patient? ➤ ME/CFS — A Roadmap for Testing and Treatment
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I don't really know,
you would have to ask a doctor about that.
I take a few low-dose antidepressant drugs along with the very low-dose amisulpride, in order to treat depression (the drugs I list
in this post). But drug compatibility and
interaction are something your doctor should be able to help with.
I still take very low dose amisulpride every day,
which helps for some ME/CFS symptoms, but also helps with the very mild
psychosis-type symptoms I get.
Hi @Hip. It's actually good to hear you tell
people to check with their doctors as so many don't. To be honest, many of
these drugs have helped save my life and restore some measure of sanity to it.
True, I would rather (& am in some cases) on natural healing methods, but
there are times when we need help and help is available if we look for it. I'm
not saying it's easy....certainly not, but there are now
at least 100% more centers than we had available at the beginning of this.
One problem we'll see more of in the future is one I've already been through:
The mechanical problems associated with this illness. More and more will be
found, but I would like to stress that it won't always mean the eradication of
ME/CFS/FM from our lives. The earlier these problems (such as CCI & Chiari)
are found, the better. The lesser amount of damage caused. That's why it's
mandatory to find good MRI techs, plenty of doctors to read the results and
have the necessary knowledge to recognize and deal with them. Surgery isn't
always the only answer...listen to what you're being told, and listen
carefully. Yours, Lenora.
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@Hip First
off, as a new member I just want to thank you for all the contributions you've
made on these forums. I've been going through a lot of old posts and you seem
to be everwhere with lots of good information.
I was wondering if Amisulpride is still working for
you, and if you knew of any other ME/CFS sufferers who have had the success
with it that you have (besides the ones who talk about it in this thread)? I
know the big issues people are usually focused on fixing are fatigue and PEM,
so I can kind of understand why it hasn't become more widespread, but I am
still surprised that I don't see it talked about more. It feels like Amisulpride hits a ton of related quality of life issues
(many of which my wife experiences).
She's basically restarting from zero on her meds, just taking a few supplements
at the moment, and given the low cost and how quickly you saw results Amisulpride seems like an easy thing to trial before we
start adding other meds that might complicate things.
Likes:Hip, Abha, sb4 and 2 others
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I was wondering if Amisulpride is still working for you, and if you knew of
any other ME/CFS sufferers who have had the success with it that you have
I am still taking 12.5
mg daily, and it still helps certain symptoms. I don't know many ME/CFS
patients who have tried very low dose amisulpride.
Many will be wary of taking antipsychotics, because of the serious side effects
they can trigger (discussed in this thread). However, with these very low
doses, the risk of developing these has been shown in studies (mentioned in the
firs post) to be very much less.
There is an entire Facebook group devoted to Abilify for ME/CFS,
and many are experimenting with that; but I don't think many are trying amisulpride.